Life, Health & The Universe
Life, health and the universe are all connected. In a world where we are more connected than ever, we have become disconnected from ourselves. In this podcast, along with guests, I discuss ideas in a celebration of life, an exploration of health and some wonderment of the universe.
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Life, Health & The Universe
Celebrating Neurodivergence in Children's Literature
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Have you ever wondered what it takes to empower children with dyslexia? Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Lynn Greenberg, a retired attorney who transformed her life to become a dedicated mother of her dyslexic son, Jonathan. Lynn shares her inspiring journey , sparked byJonathan's diagnosis of dyslexia and ADHD. She shares how she navigated the early signs, trusted her instincts, and became a pivotal force in Jonathan's education.
We untangle the complexities of dyslexia, exploring its genetic ties and societal misconceptions. Lynn opens up about the relief that comes with understanding and adapting to life with dyslexia, rather than outgrowing it. Through personal stories of schooling and embracing creativity and empathy, we celebrate the unique strengths that often accompany neurodivergence. Lynn's journey underscores the vital importance of nurturing each child's distinctive abilities and fostering an environment where differences are not just accepted but cherished.
Get a behind-the-scenes look at the creation of "Robby, the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure," co-authored by Lynn and her son Jonathan. Learn about their thoughtful approach to designing a book that truly resonates with dyslexic readers, from using dyslexia-friendly fonts to conducting engaging school visits. The positive reception of their book highlights the power of representation and awareness in children's literature, and Lynn's ongoing mission to champion the neurodivergent community through storytelling and advocacy.
You can find Lynn's full profile with all links in our Guest Directory
https://lifehealththeuniverse.podcastpage.io/person/lynn-greenberg
Welcome to Life, health and the Universe, bringing you stories that connect us, preventative and holistic health practices to empower us and esoteric wisdom to enlighten us. We invite you to visit our website, where you can access the podcast, watch on YouTube and find all of our guests in the guest directory. Visit lifehealththeuniversepodcastpageio. Now let's get stuck into this week's episode. Did you know? Dyslexia influences as many as one in five people and is a genetic difference in an individual's ability to learn and process information. As a result, dyslexic individuals have differing abilities and differing strengths in creative problem solving and communication skills, such as spelling, reading and memorising facts. Our guest today is Lynn Greenberg, and she and her son, jonathan, are helping to literally rewrite the story for children with dyslexia.
Speaker 1:Lynn has focused her life on being a champion for children. As a trained attorney, lynn spent her time in the legal world practicing family law, providing pro bono work for kids and advocating for advocating sorry on their behalf. When her youngest son, jonathan, was diagnosed with dyslexia, becoming his advocate came easy Together. Now retired Lynn, I think, and adult Jonathan have created a children's book Robbie, the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure. This is a book born out of Lynn's desire for neurodivergent children to be able to see themselves in characters in a storyline. That was a long intro that I made Lynn sit uncomfortably listening to.
Speaker 2:Welcome.
Speaker 1:Lynn, I'm really looking forward to our conversation and thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for having me on the show. This is great. Thanks, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm really looking forward to our conversation for having me on the show. This is great. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation. So let's start by you telling us a little bit about yourself, just sort of like high level your background. Like I mentioned that you're an attorney. You're now retired.
Speaker 2:So what has your background been like up to this point? So I am a very retired attorney okay, very retired, very, very retired, or some some might say reformed but I am a very tired attorney and, um, I stopped practicing when john, uh, was little okay, it was, it was just a lot. I have three much older children and, um, I felt like I wasn't giving my job the attention it needed. I had thought maybe I'd go back, but then changed my mind. But I had other careers, obviously a mom and now a grandma, and I had a cookie business for a while.
Speaker 2:I had different things along the way. I had, you know, different things along the way, but especially when John was diagnosed, it became something that I knew would take a lot more of my time and felt that the best thing I could do was be home for my family. So that's how it started. John's 25 now and he is getting his Master's in Fine Arts, and so it's been a wonderful, scary big learning curve process and we're at this end of it and we wanted to be able to share some of the things we've learned along the way some of the things we've learned along the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic. Would you be able to share with us a little bit about what it was like for you when Jonathan was growing up, when you kind of discovered that there was, you know, something going on that wasn't kind of fitting the mold, I guess? What was that like for you? When did it happen? What were some of the things that you noticed?
Speaker 2:So, as I said, I have three much older children and so, you know, I think anyone with kids or any association with children will know that people learn differently. But I knew that John was missing some of the cues that most children will hit as they start growing up. You know, I could tell he was super smart because he could tell me every Thomas the Tank Engine name but not tell me that Thomas started with the letter T, things like that. I just had a gut feeling that something wasn't right and you know his teachers would say oh, you know he's a boy, you know he's slow, he's this, he's that. And none of that resonated with me. I knew my child and that just didn't sound right.
Speaker 2:And so I started, you know, reading and exploring. You know, back then computers weren't quite what they are, online learning. There were no Facebook groups. There was, you know I needed to start reaching out to read books. I'd go to the library. I had a very good friend who was a pediatrician, started discussing things with her and I, you know, came to a point where I realized that I needed to maybe have him tested because the school wouldn't do that. And I found someone through my pediatrician who did test him and, sure enough, classic dyslexic super smart just was going to need how to learn to read and write differently, with some ADHD attached to it. So there was the package, but pretty classic.
Speaker 1:Okay yeah. How old was Jonathan when that all started to unfold?
Speaker 2:So I would say, when he was probably, you know, three-ish, oh, wow, okay, I knew something was off. He was the child who didn't want to watch Sesame Street or sing the ABC song, you know, I, just I in my gut, felt that something wasn't quite right. And then, by the time he got to kindergarten, I was pretty sure, but I didn't know what dyslexia was. So I had to really start understanding it. By six, I knew that I I would wanted him to be able to be tested and the school, like I said, wouldn't do that, and so I did have him tested, and so I knew by six that he was dyslexic. Okay.
Speaker 1:And what sort of things do they do? Do they just do some standard things that they expect a child of that age to be able to do, or is it a bit more complex than that you mean in school?
Speaker 2:how did I?
Speaker 2:well to to determine that he he was dyslexic so his teacher kept saying he's slow, I don't understand. He memorizes the story, but why can't he read it? And I'm like you're the teacher. So, um, and he was, he was, uh, pulled out. You know, for learning help, and you know, unfortunately at least you know here our learning specialists are so inundated they really can't possibly teach all the things that they're supposed to know. They just can't. So I started investigating what a better way for John to learn would be. He didn't like getting pulled out, it wasn't helping him. And we found, actually, through the person who did test him, we found a school that is about 45 minutes away. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he applied and got in and they take kids who are dyslexic or have a language-based learning difference. They have to, you know, be smart kids that they can teach. And then we were thrilled when he got in, but we knew that it was going to be a family decision to get him there. You know, it's a private school, so we were going to have to eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly, you know. So we were going to have to eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly. You know, we knew that we would have to drive, I would have to drive him and, as I said, we had, you know, much older children. So how was that going to be? And we came together as a family and decided to that it was very important, and so, when he was in second grade, I started to take him to the school every day and within within no time he he could do the ABCs and he started to learn because of their way of teaching.
Speaker 1:That's quite extraordinary, isn't it? Because I think it would be really easy, like you said, for him to have slipped through the cracks, Like as just a slow kid or like not, you know, not keeping up. And my little boy has had some reading difficulties he hasn't been diagnosed with dyslexia, but he's definitely hasn't didn't keep up, but it started to show more and more. But he was in that middle range where he was just getting further and further behind, because there's more expectation that you need to read instructions for every topic. Right, but yeah, but it wasn't. It didn't show up enough for them to to. You know, red flag it and, yeah, it could easily fall through the cracks. But you've kind of through your discovery, there is actually a solution for kids with dyslexia and there's a teaching strategy that that actually works, which is amazing.
Speaker 2:Very much so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you obviously faced some challenges with travel, the impacts that was going to have on your family just in terms of time and that sort of stuff. How did Jonathan adapt to that environment? Did he really thrive in that environment?
Speaker 2:Yes, a hundred percent, Because you know when he was, when he was little, and I think it's important. You say you know, how did you know? And I think it's really important for parents to not only to you know the teachers are trying, they're doing their best, but you really have to know your child. You have to listen, you have to, you have to see what they're saying to you and what they're not saying to you. The nonverbal cues are pretty important. You know, I would.
Speaker 2:I would get reports that John was acting out and I'm like that's, that's not my kid. And I came to realize he was acting out because he was embarrassed, he felt badly and it was easier to act out than to, you know, sit and try to read the book that he couldn't. So you know, we, I think it's really important to listen to your child on all sorts of levels and, you know, to find the right way to teach your child. Everyone learns differently, but Find the right way to teach your child. Everyone learns differently. But you know, for us we have found that the Orton-Gillingham method is the best way to teach a dyslexic child and that's what the school uses. Other people go with different methods, but every child that they teach in this school and they've been around for a long time has been successful, you know, to a greater or lesser degree, but this is a tried and true method.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great, I'm going to look that up. I know that we're talking like this is, you know, Jonathan's now 25 and we're here to talk about your book, but I think it's really important.
Speaker 2:I didn't even answer. Sorry, I didn't even answer. No, no, no, no, no, I think you did. I think you did.
Speaker 1:no, I just thought you're probably thinking, well, when are we going to get onto the book?
Speaker 1:Because I'm asking all these these questions about dyslexia and and some of the challenges that you face, and I think it's really important because, um, we are seeing it and, like your, your desire to help people through through the book that you've written and future books, is really to help with that process, right To help people better understand their own children, to help support the children that might be having these experiences and probably to help the adults as well understand better what a child might be experiencing. Understand better what a child might be experiencing, um, so I do want to get onto the book, but I've just got a couple more questions. Um, can you tell us about dyslexia? Because, um, I've read in your notes that it's a genetic uh, it can be genetic disposition, I suppose you might call it, and also there's some reference to neurodivergence. So is there a connection with that? Can you kind of give us a little bit of a rundown of what dyslexia presents as and how that connects with neurodivergence and what that means?
Speaker 2:So I think there's so you know, so much more of a conversation for people to discuss differences. You know, back when Jonathan was little. You know there's a lot of you know hush, hush. You can't talk about differences you know for your child because I think a lot of people thought that it was a reflection on them and it might make them less than instead of trying to understand that your child has a unique personality, has a unique brain and you need to to see your child for who he or she or they are.
Speaker 2:I did not know, but my husband's grandmother was dyslexic. Nobody knew that until John was going to the school and then it came out. It turned out there were people on my father's side of the family that were dyslexic that nobody talked about. So it definitely can run in families. There's a pretty high percentage of people with dyslexia and, as you said, just a lot aren't diagnosed, so families may not know it. I think, as I said, there are more conversations now but even so, people just may not know because their parents or grandparents didn't know.
Speaker 2:I've had people come up to me as adults and say, oh my God, I did not know. This is totally who I was as a child and now I have a name for it and neurodivergent is your brain, different people's brain, everyone's brain works a little different and different neurodivergent issues. There's dyslexia, dysgraphia, where you know you have trouble writing. Dyscalculia, where you have trouble with math. People have ADHD and ADD.
Speaker 2:All of those fall under the heading of neurodivergence and a lot of the people with dyslexia or with anything else have what they call comorbidities. So my child with dyslexia also has ADHD. You know so different people have maybe not just one thing and I think it's really important to assess. You know what your child has or what you as an adult have, and you know how best to treat and there might be different ways of going about it. Some people believe in medication for ADHD, some don't, and I think you have to find out what's best for your, for you, for your child, and it might take a little bit of time and experimenting to just find the right mix of of ways to handle whatever the issue might be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely there was a few things that came up there. Excuse me, I thought it was quite interesting and I definitely. I think it's probably there's more awareness around these kind of um issues now than there were. But, um, there's definitely that kind of like, I guess, fear, discomfort, that your child might be stupid, and that's kind of like a societal or has been. It's probably not as much now, but if don't because if they don't match up to the year that they're in the class that they're in, they're not ticking the boxes they can be considered, yeah, less than right. So you're on a mission to change that, which is great, and I think that definitely, as a parent, taking ownership and embracing that difference rather than worrying about what people might think, is really important.
Speaker 1:And yeah, actually one of the reasons that we started homeschooling was because of our experience with Louis, and he's thriving. What so? Is dyslexia something you grow out of Because you said no, because so it's like learning how it. So for a dyslexic person, it's learning how to learn, a different way of learning. It's a different system of learning.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, cool. So for John, you know, I think when we had him tested and we gave it a name, I think there was a sense of relief like oh, I'm not stupid, you know there is a reason I'm having trouble, and I think that was important and that started our journey on how best to teach him. And you know, when he got to the school, when he looked around and went, wow, I am one of how many and everyone like me, and it was such a sense of relief. And I think you know every one of the kids there that he still keeps in touch with and there are quite a few, you know, one went into, you know, to space engineering. One writes, plays one.
Speaker 2:The people who, who are dyslexic, I have found, are, you know, super creative, smart, empathetic. They use their dyslexia as a superpower. And for John, he became art was a way he could express himself before he could read and write, and so for him, he is now actually getting his master's in fine art. He's an amazing artist and, you know, a kind and empathetic person and you know, I think it's really important.
Speaker 2:I have seen a lot of parents you know, not my child, that's not my kid, you know when they are told what the diagnosis is, and I think that's a shame because then your child doesn't get to be who they need to be and how they will learn the way they need to learn. So you know, I think it's important to embrace those differences because you know, look at Richard Branson. He's, you know, the head of the, you know the owner of this huge corporation, he's dyslexic. You have writers and, and you know princes and princesses and queens, and you know they're just. Everyone is their own unique person and I think we need to learn to embrace that, yeah, and you can imagine for a child if they're not included or if they're seen as different.
Speaker 1:That's a whole nother pressure, isn't it? It's like they're already having the pressure of difficulty in in keeping up or learning um, and and then they've got the pressure of uh, conforming to like other people's expectations. So being being in a group of people that that do accept you for who you are is super important and probably a very important message for us grown-ups as well. Right, and so you've talked about, um, the qualities and superpowers of someone with dyslexia, creativity, um, really good memory spelling, um, you know.
Speaker 2:good thing there's spell check for John. You know, but you never grow out of you asked. You don't go out of a neurodivergent issue, you just need to learn how to learn differently. Yeah, there were studies done where they do MRIs of the brain functional MRIs and they have found that different parts of your brain light up if you're a normal reader.
Speaker 1:When you're dyslexic.
Speaker 2:those parts of your brain don't light up and they need to. Then you know sort of circumvent those and learn to teach you differently. And once you know if they did one on John, which they didn't, but you know any dyslexic reader, once they learn how to read the spots in the brain that light up for a normal reader will never light up for a dyslexic reader. They've just learned how to use their neural pathways in a different way and that's you know. That's why he learned so successfully. Wow, that's great.
Speaker 1:And you've said let's get onto the book. So this is obviously embracing Jonathan's creativity, your passion for getting it out there that you know we need to, you know we need to. These kids need to be more accepted, and also the other kids, the normal kids, need to be more accepting. But it's almost like when we understand something then we can better work together right. Better people.
Speaker 2:We can be better people.
Speaker 1:So we've got the book. Robbie the dyslexic taxi and the airport adventure. How did you? There it is, that's a beautiful book, thank, you just um before we start. What age would you say that this um is written for, and why did you choose that sort of age?
Speaker 2:So I would say it would be for, like the, you know, three to six, yeah, but for kids who are, you know, dyslexic, maybe a little bit older, because they still are, are learning or trying to learn how to read. And we picked it because we, you know, John John, never saw himself in a book when he was little and he thought, you know, during, during COVID, we were all in lockdown and you know, he was home as an art major from college and it's pretty hard to do art virtually, and so, you know, he was doing things but had time on his hands and at the time I was reading to my grandchildren, like over FaceTime, I'd be reading them books, and we sort of came up with this idea. You know how could we combine that? And that's how Robbie grew.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1:So some good things came out of the lockdown.
Speaker 2:Some good things. Yeah, A little more cooking, some baking and Ken. Robbie Great.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you decided to work on that project together. How did it go? Like was it all pretty free-flowing, or like who came up with the ideas and everything so who came up with.
Speaker 2:Robbie. So well, robbie is actually. His middle name is Robert, and so he decided that's how Robbie the name came yeah, and so the names in the book are family members.
Speaker 2:But you know, so it started as, yeah, I think you know his love of, you know of trains, trains and cars and anything that moved as a child is how we came up with a taxi. And then we started what would happen if this taxi had to get someplace and couldn't read the street signs. How would that be? And we started talking about it and writing it, and originally I was just going to write the book and he was going to illustrate it, but then, you know, he had a very important point of view. So we, we coauthored it and I did not help with the pictures, cause I do stick figures and that's so he did all the illustrations and you know, we it was kind of for fun at first and and it still was fun, but I have a friend who is a book designer and when we were finished I showed her and I thought, tell me the truth, you know, what do you think? And she said, oh, my god, it's adorable. And she helped us put it together and we published it and have had an amazing I mean such a reception here.
Speaker 2:I am talking to you in Australia, I'm in Connecticut in the United States. So that says something and I think the message is important, as you said, for not just children to see themselves, but children who don't understand to maybe start understanding, or parents or educators or, you know, pediatricians, people who deal with children in different ways. And we've had such an amazing response that we are now going to write a whole series and we're almost done with the next book. It's about ADHD and the same characters and you know, but adding a new one and exploring how to, you know, reach lots of different children and families in a positive way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great, it's a beautifully illustrated book, um, so you were kind enough to um send me a copy and, um, interestingly, like you know, personal reflection it it's very simple, but the message is very clear and it's something that you might not consider right if, even if we might have an expectation of what it is for someone to be dyslexic, they have, they don't, they can't read or they see words back to front or whatever it might be. But that, when you put it into the context of how you know routines, really important, know it like so. So Robbie the taxi doesn't know his way. He he's he's very familiar with street signs in a certain in certain parts of the city, but then he gets put into a situation where he doesn't know the way and how. That can bring up all sorts of like panic and anxiety and and that really helps you to.
Speaker 1:It was really simple, but but even as an adult, like that's something you to. It was really simple but but even as an adult, like that's something you go kind of go, oh, wow, that um, yeah, I didn't even think that that would be a thing, um, so yeah, it just sort of opens up the conversation and and would be great for for any age of, of child, as you said, um, and it's, and like the fact that you can, you could read that to a child and, uh, and if they had dyslexia, they would feel more accepted and understood. Yes, if you read it to a child who doesn't, but they've got a friend who has, or someone in their class that they would be able to understand and open up a conversation about that. And, as you said, for for parents, educators, um, really understanding that.
Speaker 1:So you've had a, yeah, definitely it's an interesting conversation yeah, definitely, and it's so simply um written. Can I ask you just in terms of the formatting of text, because I've seen some books in the library for dyslexic kids older kids though and like the words are separated, like they've got bigger spaces between the words, do you? How is that? Have you done that in your book? I couldn't really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not so much. I tried not to put too many words on the page, you know, but we used a dyslexic font that easier for supposedly for dyslexics to read. Everyone always asks John, who, by the way, says hello. He's sorry, he couldn't be here.
Speaker 2:It's okay, but he's in class. But you know how does this dyslexic font help you and John's like? To be honest, I don't. I don't know it's. I know how I see things now. So to me it doesn't look different. I don't know what it looks like to you versus another font, like I can see the differences when I'm looking and working. He said but you know, not having seen this before, I could read and write. I don't know that I would know the difference, but we have been told there are a few different fonts and we were told that this one is one that's very helpful for children who are trying to learn to read, who are dyslexic. Okay, cool.
Speaker 1:And you've talked about the next book because you've had such a great reception for the current one. Have you had to do? I know you said that Jonathan also has ADHD and so you've had your own experience of that in your family life as well. But have you had to do any specific research for different types of neurodivergence? When you're looking at the characters in the book and how that will be kind of demonstrated in those characters, it's a good question, I think, for Robbie.
Speaker 2:We sort of went on what we knew, cause we honestly didn't realize we would get such an amazing reception. And so we were, you know, writing for us and you know we thought if anyone else buys it that would be fine. But we've had such an amazing response that we've decided it's important to do a little more research for the next book. So we are definitely and we will not hold ourselves out, as you know, therapists or educators, because that's not who we are but we have tried to be a little more careful in our research and how we are going to portray the characters at the Creative Cab Company, where they all work.
Speaker 1:So have you got a vision for all of those different characters? I know you're probably just taking one step at a time, but um, we are.
Speaker 2:we're taking one step at a time, um, um, trying to, you know, work on the next character, but but thinking sort of how we're going to incorporate other characters and other neurodivergent issues. So you know, this book is going a little more slowly because John is in the middle of his graduate program. But in the meantime, you know, he's producing other beautiful art and participating sometimes in these wonderful conversations with people like you, and we go to school sometimes and read to kids and participate in different programs, which has been great. So the next book will be out by 20, hopefully a little before, but definitely by the early part of 2025.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's not too long definitely by the early part of 2025. Okay, that's not too long. Not too long, and you know, hopefully people will follow. We're on social media at the Creative Cab Company and we have a website. We'd love to, you know, hear from people, hear what they think and reach out to us and if they have questions, so we'll let everyone know. We actually just came out with a Spanish version of oh great, oh cool, yeah, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:We're looking at different options yeah, great, and so are you. Um, have you been doing anything like going into schools or libraries and and kind of talking about this as well?
Speaker 2:yes, so we went back to the school, where John was treated like a rock star.
Speaker 1:Did you do book signing?
Speaker 2:He did. We did book signings and they were looking honestly for his autograph. And you know, it was really heartwarming. It was wonderful. He went there from, you know, from the time he was 7 to 12, and then he went out and went to you know, a regular, you know a school where it wasn't just for dyslexic kids, but I went. We often go together or separately, depending.
Speaker 2:He's in a different, he's in Chicago right now, okay, but you know, I went to my grandson's class a while back and you know it opened up a conversation because at the time they were, you know, younger and learning how to read and what does it mean to be dyslexic? And it it opened up a really wonderful conversation. Been to other schools in the area and it's it's been really interesting to see these children who are, you know, often of the age where they're learning how to read, either go, huh, I didn't know that, or Ooh, that could be, you know, like questions. I could. You know what, how did you know? And I can't do such and such, and so I think it's a really wonderful way to open up conversations?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, especially as there are more people than we expect. Like one in five people has dyslexia. So, yeah, it's not a bad word. We need to know more about it. Yes, well, I think that you've um, we've probably covered everything there is to cover. When it comes to the book, I think it's, um, yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time. What, um? Yeah, what a wonderful gift that you're. You're sharing with the world, and I'm so glad for you that it's doing so well. Where can our listeners find the book? Like, we've got listeners worldwide, but obviously I'm in Australia, so is this book on Amazon? Do we get it directly from your website? Both?
Speaker 2:So you can go to Amazon and get it there. You can go to the website Creative Cab Company, yeah and, and buy it that way. There we have ebooks, we have it on Kobo and Audible. So there are different platforms, but if you don't remember that, you know you can go to our website or you can just, you know, go to Amazon and type in Robbie the Dyslexic Taxi and it should pop up, hopefully.
Speaker 1:Great, and we've got you in our guest directory as well, so all of your links will be included there, so the listeners will be able to access all of that information in one place. I wish you the very best of luck with the continuing success of Robbie and the next book that's coming out in 2025. Keep us posted. I'd love to hear all about it. Thank you so much for taking the time, lynn. Thanks for having me. No worries Bye for now. No worries Bye for now. Before you go, can I ask you a small favor? If you've enjoyed this show or any of the other episodes that you've listened to, then I'd really appreciate it if you took a couple of moments to hit subscribe. This is a great way to increase our listeners and get the word out there about all of the wonderful guests that we've had on the podcast. If you'd like to further support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to buymeacoffeecom. Forward slash, life, health, the universe. You can find that link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.