Life, Health & The Universe
Life, health and the universe are all connected. In a world where we are more connected than ever, we have become disconnected from ourselves. In this podcast, along with guests, I discuss ideas in a celebration of life, an exploration of health and some wonderment of the universe.
Contact Nadine: https://lifehealththeuniverse.podcastpage.io/contact
Life, Health & The Universe
Rediscovering Self-Expression: Overcoming Speaking Anxiety and Inner Criticism
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Have you ever wondered how societal programming from childhood may be holding you back from confident communication? Our special guest, Linda Ugelow, a speaking and empowerment coach, reveals how she overcame her own fear of speaking at the age of 60. Through her insights, you’ll learn about the impact of nurturing self-expression from a young age and how embracing the wisdom of children can lead to vitality and well-being.
Linda and I explore the healing process needed to overcome speaking anxiety, focusing on the importance of revisiting and reframing unresolved past experiences. By surrounding oneself with self-compassion and assigning new meanings to these events, the burden of fear in social situations can be lifted, paving the way for more joyful and authentic communication. Through real-life examples, we highlight how these unresolved experiences can unexpectedly affect confidence, making it crucial to address the triggers that hold you back.
We also untangle the complexities of inner criticism and imposter syndrome, especially among high-achieving individuals. Discover practical approaches to transform your inner critic into a supportive ally and the role of presence in self-expression. Through personal stories, including the journey of a high-performing tech COO, we reveal how embracing mistakes with grace and humour not only enhances relatability but can also uncover unexpected opportunities.
Let us inspire you to embrace your true self and rediscover the magic of uninhibited self-expression, drawing lessons from the delightful, uninhibited nature of children.
You can find Linda's Full Profile in our Guest Directory https://lifehealththeuniverse.podcastpage.io/person/linda-ugelow
Welcome to Life, health and the Universe, bringing you stories that connect us, preventative and holistic health practices to empower us and esoteric wisdom to enlighten us. We invite you to visit our website, where you can access the podcast, watch on YouTube and find all of our guests in the guest directory. Visit lifehealththeuniversepodcastpageio. Now let's get stuck into this week's episode. So many of us are afraid to speak, whether it's in front of the camera, during a presentation or speaking in a meeting, for example. In fact, this fear of speaking seems to be so common that we think it's just normal. We fight against it, we push through the experience and we're relieved when it's over. Our guest today is Linda Ugalo. Linda is a speaking and empowerment coach and author of Delight in the Limelight, and she's going to share how we can transform our speaking anxiety into confident self-expression. Linda, thank you so much for joining us. As we said just before we hit record, the universe has our back. We had to reschedule, but it turned out that we had our time zones wrong. So here we are, perfect timing.
Speaker 2:Great to have you here, thanks so much. It's so nice, it's so cool that we can connect from opposite parts of the globe.
Speaker 1:I know, I know it's amazing. Yeah, we're very, very fortunate. I know, I know it's amazing. Yeah, we're very, very fortunate, and you're dialing in from Boston, from Boston Massachusetts.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, yeah, cool.
Speaker 1:US Welcome. Thank you. Glad to be here of your book when I was on the plane on the way home, so, yeah, it filled up many great hours which would have been otherwise spent mindlessly watching crap on telly. So thank you for that. And just yeah, so many insights. I feel like this is a real theme at the moment on the podcast people we're speaking to, which helps us to kind of get our message out to the right people. So many of these stories, these things that are happening, these themes are related to our lives in general. So you know, you might be speaking a public speaker, and someone might say, well, this podcast isn't for me, but in fact you could be just speaking in your family and wanting to find your self-expression.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up because speaking is our human design. We're born to speak. Children delight in it. They delight in making sounds, making words, putting sentences together. By the time they're three years old, you can't get them to stop. And yet, as you said in your introduction, somewhere between then and now we have had a different kind of programming. We've had programming of know, programming of you know, parents trying to get us to be quiet, or to be quiet in school and to be compliant and good kids and easy to handle. And inadvertently I mean those are just a few of the message Inadvertently we have experiences that erode our sense of free self-expression that we had as little kids. You know everything that we delight in. As we look at little kids and we say, oh my God, I wish I could be self unselfconscious like that. It's because of all the programming that we've had that's taken it away or covered it up, because of all the programming that we've had that's taken it away or covered it up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, and I really like to dig into that a little bit more. Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, I've got two children and I feel like sometimes they're the teachers. So I started late in life when it came to motherhood. I didn't have my first one until I was 40 and the second one I'm nearly 42. But I feel like they came along at the right time to, kind of, because you you do see that and they become your greatest teachers when it comes to like that, that innocence and, you know, perfection, that's in in childhood, that and and I guess you start to witness also where your own personal experiences were and trying not to pass that on where those lines.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely so. I also had my daughter at 40 and and she has become a singer who's so comfortable on stage and I look at her and I say that's what it looks like when somebody has not been shut down. Yeah, that's what it looks like when someone has been nurtured not over nurtured, not pushed, but just allowed to grow into themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, and so would you say that you were you coaching people in this particular modality when you had your daughter.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, okay, not at all. I didn't get over my fear of speaking until I was 60 years old.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, and how old are you now?
Speaker 2:Almost 10 years ago. I'll be 70 this year.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, I don't know if it's inappropriate to say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. You look wonderful. Oh, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't put you down at 60. I feel that it's not unrelated. Right, okay, okay, because I think that the more we allow ourselves to be ourselves and to express ourselves, the more it's. Who said something like we don't stop playing when we get old, we start. We get old because we stop playing.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it. Yeah, yeah, and I think that there's so much focus on getting all of the things done when we're like pre, you know, pre midlife, let's say that we think that it's over, don't we? Or we can think that it's over. I made it. I made it to 50 last year and I've been saying to people now that first part is like the warm up for what's to come and it's not over till it's over, like every moment is, yeah, super.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and even at age 60, you can have an epiphany that totally changes your life, like it did for me.
Speaker 1:Okay, so do you want to tell us a little bit of the backstory of how this all came about? Would you be open to doing that?
Speaker 2:Yes, of course, of course. So I was somebody who was very uncomfortable speaking for all those decades. I did the thing of avoiding it as much as I could, let other people stand in the front. I mean, it's so hard to imagine. I mean, you see me now and I understand you. You look at me and you say, oh, she's a complete natural. No, nothing could be further from the truth. I did that whole avoidance piece and then something happened in my life where I was pushed to speak, and so then I moved into another stage that a lot of people might be able to relate to, which you talked about in the introduction, is you just assume that everybody has this anxiety and so you push through it, you ignore it, you try to manage it, and that's what I did for for many years as well, until I became an online coach. Suddenly, I needed to get visible. If people don't know you exist, you can't help them.
Speaker 2:So I took a whole bunch of video courses, unlisted. Of course, nobody saw them. And then my video mentor said there's this amazing new app. You've got to get on, linda. Everybody, you know everyone. She told her students got to get on Periscope. Periscope was the first live streaming app. Now, of course, live streaming now is common, but then it was completely novel new technology and all the marketing gurus said you got to get on daily to build your following. So I thought that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be here. I am at 60, you know I'm coming late at this, late to life. I'm going to be an early adopter.
Speaker 2:But they didn't tell me how terrifying it was. And I'm talking about like heart pounding, disassociating from my body, hyperventilating, and I, at the end of the week, I reached out to my video mentor and I said do you feel scared? Like I feel scared. And she said oh, linda, you'll be fine. It takes about 10 weeks or, you know, 75 days to adjust. And I'm thinking 75 days, that's not going to work.
Speaker 2:So I went online and I Googled how to get over my nerves and I followed all these things like pretend your fear is excitement or don't think of yourself, think of your audience, or feel the fear and do it anyway. And that's what I decided I'm going to do. I'm going to feel the fear and do it anyway. And every day I tried new things meditation, deep breathing, power poses, affirmations, kicks and punches. You know, you name it. I tried it and the truth is it got me on live stream every single day and I assumed in a few weeks I'll be fine. So I got to day 75, didn't even think that it was day 75, but the weeks went by and all of a sudden I'm thinking why is my heart still pounding like a racehorse? Why is my heart still pounding like a racehorse?
Speaker 2:And I realized that all this experience did not bring me to a place of confidence. You know, doing it every day, exposure therapy didn't bring me to a place of confidence that all I was doing really was managing my fear. But the fear was there, waiting for me every single day. I think I probably got better at live streaming, but I didn't feel better. And what you're talking about is how can we feel better in our lives? That's what I wanted. I didn't want to have fear, to have to manage every day. I just didn't want to have to manage it. I wanted to be able to plan my live stream, get on, get off and move on, yeah. So I said to myself, what can I do? And I actually have a background in expressive arts therapy and a psychology background and a ton of self-improvement stuff. So I made a list of all the things that I knew that you know how can I get rid of this? You know, if I go through every single one, I'm sure it'll be gone. And then I said to myself, before I get rid of it, what is it? What is this fear? So I closed my eyes to connect with it and I asked if the fear could talk, what would it say? And what came back was you're going to be attacked Suddenly.
Speaker 2:I have a picture in my mind of my sisters attacking me whenever mom put me in the center of attention, saying Linda is such a good girl, why can't you naughty ones be more like Linda? Well, of course they hated that. She'd walk out of the room and they charge, kick me in the shins and say shut up, stupid. And then it hit me. Duh. Of course I don't feel comfortable being the center of attention, because I learned it was dangerous. And not only that, but if I shined, shone, whatever, they wouldn't love me. They wouldn't love me. And I was thinking this is weird, is this true, is this like? Is this real? Because that was so long ago and we're good friends now. How could that possibly be an issue? But when I checked in with myself and I said, am I still afraid that if I, if I succeeded, if I shine brightly, that they won't like me? And I could feel the answer was yes, I still feel that way.
Speaker 2:And then, all of a sudden, I realized, oh my gosh, what if the fear of speaking has nothing to do with you know who's going to watch us on video? But it has everything to do with how we were made to feel in the past, the times that we, the times we were led to feel it wasn't safe. And I discovered it wasn't just my sisters, but the times I was bullied, the times that I was rejected, when I was embarrassed in class because I didn't have the right answer, when I was pressured to perform before I was ready and I was mortified. It could be any number of things, but I realized this is the key that nobody is talking about online If you Google how to get over the fear of speaking.
Speaker 2:You'll come up with all the things I just mentioned, but you won't, because somehow my SEO isn't good enough yet for me to show up on the front page. You won't find how to actually get over your fear, and this is the first step is to reveal the root causes, and then it's really not enough to know what happened. You've got to do something with it. You've got to change your relationship with it, because we ascribe meaning to the things that happen to us. Oh, those people didn't want to talk to me. I must not be interested. People don't want to hear what I have to say. That is going to impact your speaking confidence. Oh, I was punished and hit. It's not safe for me to be seen. That is going to impact your speaking confidence.
Speaker 1:Wow. So much of that resonates for me and that is kind, it's kind of interesting, isn't it? Well, we, I think we're realizing more and more as humans that those things that happen to us when we're, uh, in our youth or childhood do have they, they're imprinted in us and that they, we carry them with us even if we don't realize. And that's something that I I've been coming to becoming more aware of in my own life over the last few years, and social media has had a big part of it as well. It was that, like, if I post online, yeah, it feels dangerous.
Speaker 1:And there was this whole like story of what are people going to think about me? What if they don't like me? All of those things. And I had experiences in my teens when I was bullied, um, you know, so it's not safe to to be seen. So all of that really resonates for me, um, and I think it's a really good indicator when you don't feel that anymore, when you can go on to, uh, you know, talk in public or on social media, and it's like I'm just talking on social media and I'm having a good time. There's not that entire backstory going on, um.
Speaker 2:That's right, you're not dragging it around with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's like, and there's, yeah, there's something to be said for kind of letting go of the past. But I feel like there's also like this process that has to happen, where we revisit the past and acknowledge that experience and accept that experience and not necessarily get rid of it. Not get rid of old Linda or old Nadine or you know those experiences, not push them down, because I feel like for 35 years that's what I did. I was just like, oh, that wasn't very comfortable, like I didn't even know I was doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's push that away, let's not think about that. But that, what do you? What do you? Yeah, but even though we may not be paying attention to it, it is paying attention to us and it's still with us.
Speaker 2:So, anytime we had an icky experience, if, unless we debrief it and resolve it and neutralize it, it's going to stay with us and it's going to glom onto all those other experiences that felt uncomfortable or unsafe. And suddenly you have this, this glob or a mountain in front of you that feels like a big obstacle of fear to to push through every single time. And if you want to feel comfortable when you speak anywhere, whether it's, you know, at a party with friends, whether it's at a party with friends or at work in a company, or if you're an entrepreneur, with getting on social media or networking, that you want to be present, that's the key is, how do we get ourselves comfortable, present, relaxed in the here and now? And to do that we need to clear not get rid of, but clear the past so that it's not a trigger. And, like I said before, we ascribe meaning to it.
Speaker 2:So part of it is assigning new meaning to it, revisiting it in a way that so when things happen to us, oftentimes we don't have the resources to handle it in a way that it doesn't affect us. We didn't have the teacher or the parent or the mentor, we didn't think of telling them, or maybe they were the problem that you know we. So we coped, we came up with something that we could cope with, and then these coping mechanisms that keep us safe are the things that don't serve us later in life. So we do need to revisit them enough, enough to change our relationship to them, enough so that we can forgive ourselves, if nobody else forgive ourselves, and surround ourselves with love and compassion and appreciation for who we've been and who we've become, so that it doesn't sit in us in the same way. We still know them, they're still our stories, but they're just that. They're just a story. They're not a scripture to live life by.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it kind of makes sense, as you were talking, like that whole experience where we, if we haven't gone through that process of like, accepting and how did you say what were the words you used? Not healing, but Clearing, clearing, neutralizing yeah, how did you say what were the words you used? Not healing, but clearing, neutralizing, yeah, that, um, we have a whole chemical reaction, don't we? So absolutely kind of have that experience and then every time we think we're that story, we have that story, that entire chemical reaction, our brain releases all of the same chemicals, so we actually feel like we're still in it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's why it's a trigger and that's why your heart races and you start sweating or you shake and you can't think straight.
Speaker 2:And that's also the reason why I think it's misguided to try to push through the fear number one, because half of your brain is absorbed with trying to manage the fear and your feelings about having fear. So you're not just nervous, but you're nervous about being nervous. You're nervous about it being visible to other people and you're trying to control it. So that takes away from your ability to just be paying attention to your thoughts and communicating and connecting, because you're so pulled into this managing of the experience. It doesn't get rid of the fear to push through it, as I mentioned before. And number three, it takes the joy away Because, as I started off with, speaking is our human design.
Speaker 2:We're supposed to have fun with it. Look at a child. They show us this is supposed to be fun. Yeah, and this is why I like speaking fear actually, because it's uncomfortable. It asks of us and it invites us to look at what's in the way. Yeah, not just speaking. That it affects. If you go back and you clear away that bullying, if you go back and you clear how your, your parent, took up all the airtime and you never could get an word in edgewise, they always had to be right, your thoughts were not considered. Any of these things that you are able to, to clear away. It's going to have this impact on your whole life, not just your speaking, but just how you be in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so interesting Like, and I'd like to kind of just go back and give another example or a couple of other examples so that people like may resonate. As you said, it could be speaking in front of your family. I had an experience a few months ago where I was in a community group and they asked us to talk in the circle. You know, each of you had to say why you were there. Oh, my goodness, like I get the lump in my throat, like I feel like I'm going to cry. It's intense. It's intense, as you suggest, the like that is a, it's a beacon.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like there's something in there, nadine, that needs to be yes you need to be recognized and, like likely nadine likely that is connected to the bullying, because when we are afraid, in that network networking and that is a very common I I remember I know exactly what you're describing, because that was me too. Yeah, when we are afraid in that circle of peers, it relates to a wound in our circle of peers. Yeah, yeah, okay, do you have another example that you wanted to share.
Speaker 1:It was a similar situation but like, yeah, it was another kind of group situation, but it was that, yeah, exactly the same thing, different group, but like talking, or someone asked me a question, or even a one-on-one. Actually, if someone asked me something where I feel quite vulnerable, same thing, just feel like I'm going to. You know, I get the lump in my throat and I'm going to cry. Yeah, there's a vulnerability and I guess probably not feeling safe to express who I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so, very, very close to my heart. I'm just peeking down at my notes.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking, nadine, that it's you know. One of the nice things about hosting a podcast is you're the ones who gets to ask the questions, so you're not going to have to talk about me oh dear, all right, so let me have a look at.
Speaker 1:I've I know so you've kind of said some of the mistakes that individuals make in trying to deal with their fear of speaking is like pushing it down, and we've sort of said that when you do that, when you push through, when you're like, oh well, everyone feels like this, I just have to do it once, all of the things that, uh, you know and you said in your own experience going in front of the camera for those 75 days, but you're still producing all of this chemical reaction that's causing the same feelings, even if you are pushing through.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of like that's the big mistake that people make is just ignoring it Would you say that, yes, and you know, I don't blame, I don't blame people, because most of us, I didn't realize that there was something I could do about it. I didn't realize that I could live my life without it. Because when I, when I stopped that day and I I recognize that this has root causes and then I actually had some tools to clear it away Five days later it was gone. Five days, five days it was gone.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:That was nine years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, how much work did you have to put in and how much consistent work do you put in for that. Like, do you have to keep going through a particular process? Like do you have to keep going through a particular process?
Speaker 2:You know, I felt like there is some circling around or spiraling around. But what I did was I recognized the issue with my sister, so I did some EFT around that to begin with. And then I thought about all these other experiences that I had that I described and I did some EFT, and then I did. Experiences that I had were that I described and I did some EFT, and then I did. Then I remember being up in the middle of the night for several nights for a couple of hours and thinking about all the comments and all the experiences I had. That made me feel uncomfortable and I just said I forgive you. I'll give you an example with my mother, I'll. I forgive you, mom, mom, for not knowing how to parent better. I forgive you for not realizing the danger you put me in. I forgive you for not knowing how to handle my sisters who who were naughty, you know, I for, and I would forgive my sisters and I'd say why. And then I did a lot of self-forgiveness. I, I, as I said, I just kind of like lay there at night and and did a review of my earlier experiences. It doesn't even have to be early experiences. There are experiences we have as adults also relationships, workplaces where that people may be unkind or bullying or, you know, microaggressions and all kinds of things. So there's plenty of material to clear up. I would say, before the pandemic I did lead my first retreat and we had three and a half days and I'd say half the people on the retreat by the end of those three and a half days, and I'd say half the people on the retreat by the end of those three and a half days were over their fear of speaking and the other half it took another session and maybe some evidence to show them that they were over it. Now I think if I was to do the retreat again which I would love to do because it was a lot of fun I would say five days or four and a half days and I know that people would come out the other side being a different person.
Speaker 2:But because I haven't done it in that kind of format, it takes about, like in my group program it takes about 10 weeks and when I work privately it's anywhere. Oh gosh, it really depends on where someone is and what their experiences is. But I've worked with people for two or three sessions and it's gone. Those are usually people who are already speaking but they suffer silently inside, and then it's, I think, on average between nine and 12. And then occasionally it can be longer. It just depends on what someone's experiences are and how willing they are and how easy it is or how how sticky their experience are. Is experiences are their experience are, is experiences are Wow, yeah, okay so, but but still that's, I mean that's not a lot of time. When you think about decades, I mean it's like a couple of months or two or three months, is it's magical?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually it's not that mad. I mean it feels magical, but it isn't magic. It's a process that we follow and it starts very unkind and yet we don't even realize it's there because it sounds so familiar, until you say things out loud Like I had a client. Actually he was really unusual. We couldn't find any traumatic experiences from his past at all at all and it turned out he was at the top of his class, valedictorian and, but he was suffering. He was a COO of a tech startup and every time he had to lead, speak at a meeting, he you know same symptoms. And I said to him Sumit not his real name, but I use it in my storytelling what do you tell yourself? As before it's your turn to speak and it sounded a little bit like you're not a very good speaker.
Speaker 2:Look at your partner. He's a natural so much better than you. You're dull and boring. You messed up, you're rambling, stop it. People are going to see you're nervous, you're going to lose your reputation.
Speaker 2:And it's like, oh my God, I mean back to him like this. He went okay, I get it. It's like he had an inner bully ready to pounce and berate him on every perceived imperfection. And when you have been a really good student and a student, it's so easy to conflate your worthiness with being perfect and never making mistakes. This is our school's trauma we feel like mistakes are bad. So if he self-evaluated that, oh, that was only a 96, that's a failure Failure Because he is the person that always was perfect. So if you don't feel safe inside yourself, you're not going to feel safe in front of others. So we really do need to. I don't like to say quiet or shut down that voice. I think it's. I think it's a wounded voice. I think it wants to learn how to communicate better and we can help it be more encouraging, supportive, loving, uplifting, and then we feel so much better.
Speaker 1:It's that acknowledgement, isn't it? I know you're there, I can hear you, I understand why you're there. That kind of thing rather than.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also like what is it that you're concerned about? I mean, I like to ask it. I do this in a process in my comfy on camera module, where we learn to watch ourselves on video without cringing and the first thing we do is we watch ourselves and we let ourselves cringe and we write down all the things we dislike, all the things we hate, and it's so easy to make a long list and then, well, we go through a process. There's some things we can change and some things we can't. So, the things that we can't change, there's a process for acceptance. The things we can change, it's like okay, you don't like that.
Speaker 2:I lift my chin up when I speak. What do you suggest? Yeah, and then you let it come up with suggestions and you go that's okay, I'll try. You know, sitting up straight, what else do you recommend it? And then it said well, maybe you can like video record yourself and, and just with just that, as your attention sounds good, what else? And in this way we teach that voice to be. It's discerning, but it also has ideas, it has solutions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great Love that. All right, checking my notes again. Okay, so that's kind of covered like healing rather than quieting the inner critical voice, healing rather than quieting the inner critical voice. Okay, so imposter syndrome is really the same, under the same umbrella, or is imposter syndrome? A little bit different, I think so.
Speaker 2:You know, I do feel like it's the same. I feel like if we feel like a fraud, there's a reason for it. The reasons, maybe, are usually overlapping with the same reasons why we might feel afraid to speak. So, for instance, if you had a parent whom you could never please, no matter how many awards you got, how many good grades, they still were never satisfied, you're going to feel like a fraud. You're going to feel like you can never get enough credentials to make you feel like you deserve to be where you are Okay. Or it could be that you had an experience where you got a leg up with something that somebody put you down for.
Speaker 2:For instance, I had one client who was part of a gifted children's program and when she kind of tested in for it she didn't get in. But her father was part of the school board and he got her in and then some boy on the way to the gifted class said to her you're not supposed to be here, You're only here because your dad is on the school board. So the parents or somebody were gossiping. And she's still, you know, even though she works for a tech company that everyone has heard of. It's a household name, she's a senior HR in it and she still felt like she didn't belong there because of this impacting experience. One comment can have a long lasting impact, for better or for worse, and this accounts for imposter syndrome. I hear it from people who go through affirmative action and then they have people saying you don't really belong here, you only got here because of that special programming. Saying you don't really belong here.
Speaker 1:You only got here because of that special programming okay right, yeah, and I feel like so much of this stuff runs so deep. Yes, you don't even know that it's happening yeah, yeah, yeah what was your um? Oh? You kind of told us about your own personal experience.
Speaker 2:What were you?
Speaker 1:doing for when you were, you know, 10 years ago, when you started to create this process. What was your work? What kind of situations?
Speaker 2:were you in, where you I had come from, organic farming, okay, and that was something that I went into when I ceased. So all I wanted to do when I was growing up was dance. And when I was 18, I was introduced to dance therapy, which I it completely changed my life and that's all I wanted to do was help people kind of build their self personhood through movement. And my father always said you'll never succeed, you'll never make a living doing that, no one's going to be interested in it. I'm not interested in it. And again, impacting past experience. So I tried to prove myself to him for a long time and after he passed away I thought why who am I trying to prove to now? This isn't working. He's right, I don't know how to make this work as a business and I think I was ahead of my time actually looking back, so I didn't know what to do. I then had a child. I was performing All this time.
Speaker 2:I was performing with a women's world music group For 40 years. I performed with them, but that was kind of like a side gig. It wasn't my big work, but it was also very foundational. I was learning music from all over the world, different languages. It was a vehicle for me to dance, because, you know, if I was a dancer in a dance company, I'd just be a body. But in a music group, when one of the musicians steps forward and dances, then it's like wow. So I felt like it was an amazing vehicle for me to be seen in some way and recognized and feel significant. It was very, quite nice. So that was going on for up until the pandemic actually.
Speaker 2:And then I did get into organic farming and I was selling vegetables to local restaurants. And then one day I thought, you know, I've always had a big dream to make a big impact. And here I am hiding behind the kale. What's that about? What's that about? And I thought, if I get to the end of my life and I haven't, you know, like, tried to do something that was bigger, I think I'm going to feel regret. So that's when I came into the online space.
Speaker 2:I took a program for coaching and I thought I would help. I didn't know what I was going to do, I didn't know what I was going to specialize in, but I was thinking I'll help people overcome stress, yeah. And so that's what was so funny about being on Periscope, because here I was totally stressed out, telling people how to not be stressed. So, yeah, that was my, was my thing. But you know what I do want to say about the background in dance and dance therapy and I mentioned the master's degree in expressive arts therapy, which was mostly in movement studies I have gained gained through all those experiences and on stage, a certain practice of presence that once I got over my fear, I was free to feel present.
Speaker 2:But not everybody has that same background as me. So what? I realized? That there was actually a third part to going from a place of dread to delight in the limelight, which is to repattern our habits of expressing ourselves and that's the way we breathe, the way we use our voice, the way we use our gestures and our body and our energy, and that when we've been living life constricted and inhibited, that's not really our real self and we may not know what our real self looks like until we start experimenting and exploring and playing around with how we use our voice and using our voice in different ways and using our bodies in different ways, and loosening up and doing things that are uncharacteristic to see how do they feel. It's like we need to try things on and experience new ways. And then, all of a sudden, we have a much larger palette to choose from when we express ourselves and it becomes more playful, more fun, more uh varied and interesting and satisfying yeah, so you, you.
Speaker 1:So you weren't really planning to do what you're doing now not at all.
Speaker 2:Not at all, I mean. I mean it was, I mean I could. In fact, you know, it's funny when I did come onto the online space, uh, as a coach, and I was talking to the only person I knew who was also an entrepreneur, and she said what, what do you want to specialize in? And I said, I think I want to talk about, like, everyday bliss you know strategies for everyday bliss. And she says you know, bliss is nice, but when I see you on stage, I think I love Linda's stage presence. I want some of that. Maybe you can teach people how to have some of that.
Speaker 2:And I said to her what do you mean? How to stand on stage and smile? Because I couldn't talk on stage. I hated having to introduce a song. So when she talked about presence, it was like my presence as I moved, or my presence as I sang and how I, you know, expressed my facial or body or just the energy, but I couldn't speak. Facial or body or just the energy, but I couldn't speak. So I, you know, when she said that to me, I thought that's, that's ridiculous. I mean that's not enough you know what am.
Speaker 2:I? How am I going to sell that? However, now, I do teach that, but it's just a piece of it, because, you know, after somebody is free of their their stuff, their mind stuff, the past stuff, then they do want to know how do I drop into my body, how do I feel grounded and calm, how do I, like, take in attention from the audience and let it just move through me and even fill me up, which is so different than terrify me. You know, it's like, how do we switch out into this like new way of experiencing ourselves? Yeah, so it's. It's, in fact, I should tell her. You know, eliza, I'm doing what you told me to do now.
Speaker 1:But you're probably giving people a little bit of bliss in their everyday lives as well. Well, I have, because self-expression is like probably something for many of us we've lost or haven't felt confident in even it being a thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's why I named my book Delight in the Limelight, because I do want people to feel delighted, delighted to open their mouth, to get to express themselves, to make sounds. I mean, it's magical and you know, because you have children who are not long out of that age where it was magical to them and you felt how magical it was to listen to them. And it can still be that way. It can still be that way even at 60, at 50, at 70.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Okay, let me have a look at the notes again. Okay, let's have, uh, okay, the similarities and differences. So let's talk about people when they're doing some kind of um presentation. So we've got the similarities and differences. Getting comfortable on camera or like in front of a crowd. So I'm thinking, you know, because, again, like for me, I guess speaking on social media is in front of the camera, right, and a lot of people are doing that, whether it's for work or whether it's just because they want to talk about something that they've experienced or you know, share anything, and then in front of a crowd. It doesn't necessarily have to be work related, right, it could be a speech at a wedding. Yes, or eulogy.
Speaker 2:A eulogy. Or you could be at a party and someone says, oh, tell these people about that time that you jumped off a cliff, yep, yep, and made it yes and survived.
Speaker 1:So what are the differences? What are some of the differences that people might experience with those two things? I guess there's practice with a camera if you're not recording it live, but then there are differences, I feel.
Speaker 2:you know, we know it's interesting that some people are totally comfortable speaking to people in front of them and feel very weirded out on the camera.
Speaker 2:And some people are really comfortable on a camera and feel very uncomfortable in person, and some people, everywhere it's uncomfortable. Or actually had one client who was comfortable in both places but uncomfortable in what you described the go around. Ah, okay, he had some heavy trauma from school around that. So the biggest difference is your attention. So when you're on camera, you learn to speak to just one person and it's easy to think about one person because you've got the camera in just one spot.
Speaker 2:And that's kind of amazing about this technology is because when I look at the camera, when I'm looking in it, the person who is looking at me feels like I'm looking at them, which is really different than when you're with more than one person. And whoever you're not looking at really knows that you're not looking at them you're not looking at, really knows that you're not looking at them. And so there is this, this kind of strategy and skill of how do you include a room full or a table full of of people in in your speaking? And that is a a level or another layer that we need to put onto our presence, so that we are you're looking off to the right and you're looking center, and then you look to the left and you just kind of like you are imagining one person, but it's like that person, and then this person, and then that person. So that is a level of complexity that you don't have when you're on camera. Okay, so that's kind of like almost getting into the nuts and bolts of public speaking.
Speaker 2:Exactly so, rather than that process of uncovering the problem with or the yes yes, so all the stuff that we already talked about the the stuff and clearing stuff that's the same for both. Uh-huh, but when? When you're talking about the differences of camera or being on person, that's going to be like a different skill level, yeah. And the other thing is that when you're with people, you see their expressions and you often make interpretations about their expressions, whereas if you're, let's say, making a video, you don't see anybody and so that's not going to impact you.
Speaker 2:Some people say that makes it hard, that makes it so hard I can't see their expressions, I don't know what they're thinking. But for other people it's like this is a freedom, because I don't have to interpret somebody looking like they don't like it. I mean, I remember, even as a performer with my, my music group, we used to talk about this that you look at in the audience and some people look like they weren't happy, but it's just their resting face, that's just their resting face. And then maybe afterwards they would jump up and they'd say, oh, my God, that was amazing, but you had no idea. And if you have no idea and you're making interpretations and you see someone who's not smiling, you go, oh and all of a sudden all the thoughts start running
Speaker 2:or that's enough to distract you from what you're doing, from the song or from what you're saying. So it's really, really important when you're speaking in person to it's almost like a discipline, to not allow your sense of interpretation and making meaning from it to distract you. It's like when you're on camera, you imagine the best of the person who's listening to you. You imagine that they're there because they want to hear from you, and it's probably true, because why are they going to waste their time listening to something that they're not interested in? When you have people who are in front of you, you know they're in the seat, they're kind of like quote unquote, stuck in the seat. So it's not like they can just go away if they're not interested in listening to you. I mean, it depends like maybe you're a street performer and that's different. But if you, let's say, you're in a room, no, people aren't generally going to stand up and leave. Well, I don't know. I guess, like at a conference, they could, but generally people feel compelled if they're there to kind of give you their attention. So you, you really do need to discipline yourself to stay focused in that same way that you would be on camera.
Speaker 2:Assume the best Know that what you have to say may not speak to the whole audience. In fact, when I was doing speaker training I've done a lot of speaker training programs. It would be a different percentage each time, but it was always. There's going to be some percentage in the audience who really gets what you're talking about really resonates. There's going to be another amount of people who they're a little skeptical but they're interested, very interested. You know, I want to hear more. Tell me more.
Speaker 2:And then there are going to be some people who just don't either, don't get it, don't like it. They have a different perspective and we have to allow ourselves to allow other people to have their own relationship to whatever it is that we're saying and to us, just like we're not going to like everything that we hear, we're not going to like everyone we meet, we have to allow not everyone to like us. And when we accept that and we know that, then it frees us up that if we see someone who's not smiling, it's like that's okay, that's okay. But I do recommend that if there are people who look more engaged, look at those people instead. I mean, that's what I did, that's what we did, you know, in our music group we'd look at the people who I mean, that's what I did, that's what we did. You know, in our music group, we'd we'd look at the people who had their open faces, and those are the people we sang to, and then we just ignored those other people.
Speaker 1:Cool, that's a good good. Um, uh, comparison makes complete sense, Okay. Okay, Tell us a little bit about how to handle mistakes, because I think that's, I think that that can be something that a lot of people well, hopefully not after they've read your book or worked with you but the fear of making a mistake is like the overriding, the overarching theme of the whole experience Like what if I go wrong? So what can we do with that?
Speaker 2:I always sigh when I think about this, because we really have a difficult time getting through our educational system without a trauma around mistakes, because, if you think about it, we get the best grades for making the fewest mistakes.
Speaker 2:So mistakes are the bad guy and we're taught to be afraid of them. Well, imagine how different it would be if we had a school system that encouraged experimentation and that making mistakes was no big deal. And that's not how we were graded. We were graded, I don't know, maybe we weren't graded, maybe we were just, you know, encouraged. But you know, we have this standardization and for some reason, you know, that's it's a way of, you know, making a hierarchy of people. So that's number one.
Speaker 2:So, if you're afraid of making mistakes, it makes total sense that you do, total sense that you do. But in the real world it's not relevant, unless, of course, you're a surgeon or an accountant. You want to try to be perfect. There's nothing wrong with wanting to polish off something, but it's just not necessary. And not only is it not necessary, perfection makes us less relatable. We are human, we're made to make mistakes. I mean, that's how we learn, right, you know? And that's, I think, what's so confusing. We're told oh, everyone learns from mistakes, but don't make mistakes, you know. So we have this like double edged sword. I remember my father. I, when I was 35, I talked to my father cause I was paralyzed by my fear of mistakes and I said, dad, what do you think of mistakes? He said everyone makes mistakes. And I started to like release all this tension. And then he said but don't make it twice, then you're stupid. And I thought, okay, now.
Speaker 1:I know why.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid of making mistakes, because I know I make mistakes more than twice, definitely, definitely, okay. So here's the key Learn to handle mistakes with poise. I'll give you some examples. If you stumble over your words, just move on. Or you bring a little humor to it. And again, words, just move on. Or you bring a little humor to it. And again, just like earlier in this episode, I stumbled over my words and I just repeated it, slowly, enunciated it and I moved on. Sometimes, like I was making a video today and I was just introducing myself Hi, I'm Linda Ugalo, a speaking confidence coach and blah blah coach, and I just started going blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and then I burst out in laughter.
Speaker 2:And I'm actually keeping it as a blooper reel because I just thought it was kind of funny, like I can't even introduce myself and here I am a speaking confidence coach. We can be self-deprecating and people enjoy that. I mean, who doesn't like a blooper reel? They're fun. So if you stumble, make a mistake, that's not a terrible thing. Roll with it, enjoy it. Or just move on.
Speaker 2:Number two let's say you've organized something to present and you realize you skipped over a section. First of all, nobody knows that you skipped over a section. First of all, nobody knows that you skipped over a section. So the easiest thing is to just forget it. Move on However you may feel like but I really feel like this is an important piece Then stick it back in when it feels like it works. Stick it back in when it feels like it works. Or you can say hold it there, let's circle back to this first. Just a short, two little sentences, and if you have that in your back pocket you'll never worry about skipping over a section. Or let's say you get distracted and you lose your place and you don't remember what you're talking about. Well, you could either. I was taught. Well, you can say what you just said again, you can repeat what you said again and it'll juggle your mind. But truthfully I like to say I can't remember what I was just saying, what was?
Speaker 2:I just saying Now, you can't do that online. Let's say, if you're giving a webinar so easily, but in life you can do that, and that's audience interaction. People get to say, oh, you were saying this, and they get to supply that information and they like that and it's fun. Oh yeah, thanks so much. What if you don't know the answer to something in a Q&A? Well, there's nothing wrong with not knowing an answer in today's age, when we've got Google and now chat, gpt. I don't know the answer to that, I'll look it up and get back to you. Or you can say I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you this. Or you can say I don't know the answer, but I'm sure maybe there's someone else here who does. And then you switch into being a facilitator, which also shows your skills and credibility. So these are the point of all this. Is that? So these are the point of all this? Is that mistakes don't have to be the boogeyman Mistakes can I got?
Speaker 2:to it. I had no idea why I put it there and I said so. I said I just put the slide here this morning. I have no idea why, but I know it was important. So just give me a minute and maybe it will come. And I was standing there and I was standing there going, oh God, should I just move on? Which would have been fine, I could have done that. But then all of a sudden it came to me and I said oh yes, if you haven't prepared, that can also cause speaking anxiety. And everybody, everybody was still laughing. And then I realized how ironic it was and probably sounded like it was well rehearsed as well, exactly, exactly. And someone said you should keep that in. You should keep that in there the president.
Speaker 2:It was a Rotary Club or no. Yeah, I think it was a Rotary Club. The president came up to me and said I loved that moment. That was my favorite moment. And then she hired me as her coach. So that is to say, your mistakes make you relatable? Yeah, and it can also make you money.
Speaker 1:Ah, very good, Fabulous. You've given us so many amazing insights and, yeah, I love it. I'm conscious we've just reached our hour and I'd love for you to share. Share with us a little bit about you. Know how we can, uh, get hold of your book? Um, work with you, find out more about what you're doing. I know that your Instagram page is great and like full of, uh, really helpful material, Um, so, yeah, I would say I'm more active on Tik TO Everywhere Everywhere.
Speaker 2:It's Linda Ugelow, u-g-e L-O-W. My book Delight in the Limelight is on Amazon or anywhere else. You can also order it from your library or your favorite local bookstore and it's in all forms so you can get it on Kindle or audio or paperback. And then, if you want to be on my email list, I have a speaker preparation checklist of practices and warmups you can do to help you feel grounded, relaxed and energized and focused. So you can get that at lyndayougalowcom. U-g-e-l-o-wcom. Forward slash rituals.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Did you want to add anything else?
Speaker 2:There's one last thing. There's one last thing I would love to say is think about the places that you already love to speak, the people who you already love to speak with, and allow yourself to see how you can enjoy yourself just 2% even more and what that might be like? How can I make this even more fun to talk to these people who I already enjoy speaking with?
Speaker 1:lovely, great. I can't recommend this book enough, as I said right at the beginning and I've said a couple of times through throughout this hour, like we don't necessarily need to be speaking in front of massive crowds If we just want to have confidence in expressing ourselves in our everyday lives with the people that we spend time with, as you said, and improving that experience. There is absolutely so much value in going in and doing the healing process, even if you're not a speaker. But, as you've shared with us, you know, it took until you were 60. You're looking amazing and you attribute part of that I'm sure you have a wonderful lifestyle as well, but I'm but you attribute that kind of uh to your confidence and that healing process that you've been through as well on your speaking journey. So, yeah, I can't recommend this book enough. Um, and thank you so much for joining us. I've really loved having you here and it's given me inspiration to improve my speaking skills as well, which is probably a good thing, considering.
Speaker 1:I have a podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, well, you know it, it's a learning journey for all of us. Yeah, and it's not like you get to one place and it stops. It's always evolving and that's what makes it fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate your time, linda, and I wish you all the best. We're gonna put your details in the guest directory so people can find all of the links to your TikTok Instagram. So people can find all of the links to your TikTok Instagram. Really appreciate it if you took a couple of moments to hit subscribe. This is a great way to increase our listeners and get the word out there about all of the wonderful guests that we've had on the podcast. If you'd like to further support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to buymeacoffeecom forward slash, life, health, the universe. You can find that link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.