Life, Health & The Universe
Welcome to **Life, Health & The Universe**, the podcast dedicated to empowering women in their 40s and 50s to embrace a vibrant and meaningful life. Join us as we explore the intersection of health, wellness, and personal growth, offering insights and inspiration to help you navigate this transformative stage of life.
Each week, we dive into topics that matter most to you— from holistic health and nutrition to mindfulness and self-discovery. With expert interviews, relatable stories, and practical tips, we aim to inspire you to live your best life, cultivate deeper connections, and find purpose in every moment.
Whether you’re seeking to enhance your well-being, explore new passions, or simply find a supportive community, **Life, Health & The Universe** is here to guide you on your journey. Tune in and discover how to thrive in this exciting chapter of life!
Contact Nadine: https://lifehealththeuniverse.podcastpage.io/contact
Life, Health & The Universe
Beyond the Label: Understanding ADHD - ADHD Specialist & Coach, Jen Lewis
Let us know what you thought of this episode!
Imagine discovering at midlife that your brain operates on an entirely different system than most people around you. That's exactly what happened to Jen Lewis, an ADHD specialist and coach who joins us as our milestone 80th guest on Life, Health and the Universe podcast.
In this fascinating conversation, Jen reveals how her journey from corporate executive to ADHD coach began with her son's early diagnosis, eventually leading to her own "aha" moment of recognition. She brilliantly explains why ADHD isn't simply an attention deficit, but fundamentally a different operating system—one that responds to emotional significance rather than importance alone. "A neurotypical brain is more importance-based," Jen explains, "whereas an ADHD brain is more interest-based or emotional significance-based."
We explore the heart of emotional dysregulation in ADHD, unpacking how Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria creates disproportionate responses to perceived criticism, affecting everything from workplace boundaries to personal relationships. Jen shares powerful stories of transformation, including how simple environmental changes drastically improved her son's behaviour, and how one client shifted from shame to self-acceptance by recognising the wisdom in his unique adaptations.
What truly sets this episode apart is Jen's refreshing philosophy of "flowing in" rather than "fitting in"—challenging the notion that people with ADHD need fixing. Instead, she demonstrates how understanding your unique brain allows you to develop personalised systems that work with your natural patterns instead of against them. Whether you're navigating ADHD yourself, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about neuro-diversity, this conversation offers compassionate insight that goes far beyond conventional understanding.
Ready to discover how understanding your brain's operating system could transform your experience? Listen now, and perhaps you'll recognise some wisdom in what you previously saw as flaws.
You can find Jen's Full Profile in our Guest Directory https://lifehealththeuniverse.podcastpage.io/person/jenlewis
Welcome to Life, health and the Universe, bringing you stories that connect us, preventative and holistic health practices to empower us and esoteric wisdom to enlighten us. We invite you to visit our website, where you can access the podcast, watch on YouTube and find all of our guests in the guest directory. Visit lifehealththeuniversepodcastpageio. Now let's get stuck into this week's episode. Today, we are welcoming our 80th guest on the Life, health and the Universe podcast. I feel like I should have balloons and streamers for you, jen. You're the 80th guest, so thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1:Jen Lewis is an ADHD specialist and coach, dedicated to helping individuals understand their unique brains and develop practical strategies that work with the ADHD system. She also focuses on emotional regulation, a common challenge for ADHDers hit record. I told you I was keeping my intro of you super short because, like I know that you're, you have you've just got so much that you're going to share with us. So there was so much I could have included in the intro, jen, but I thought I would hand over to you and, like, adhd is obviously a pretty hot topic now. So we are not going to be short of things to talk about, but do you want to give us a bit of an outline of who you are, what you do, how you got into this work, and then we'll sort of get into the nuts and bolts, welcome.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you. So yeah, adhd specialist and coach. So in my previous life, I guess for many years, I worked for corporates and I was in set coach for quite a while. Um got two young boys, so eight and thirteen, and I'm just I may jump around because I'm thinking of your few questions, that's okay, but um, how did I get into this? So I suppose the bits that are relevant for today is because we're talking about the emotional regulation piece and even though I was really an optimistic person and always have been, I didn't realize that I also had a bit of emotional dysregulation. And I started about 10, 11 years ago, went on this mindfulness course and I can remember my exec coach at the time has suggested it, and I can remember sitting in this room with about 30 other people for weeks on end and I was thinking, why are they getting all of these insights? And I was really frustrated with it and et cetera, et cetera. But I powered on and I powered through it and then at the end of the six weeks I think I was probably one of the most transformed people throughout the whole course. It had really changed my physiology, my regulation At that time didn't know that I had ADHD. Anyway, fast forward a few years. I actually started teaching mindfulness because it had changed me in so many ways, it had brought me to so much peace and I just dealt with things internally so differently. So then fast forward.
Speaker 2:My now eight-year-old was diagnosed at age three with oppositional defiance with ADHD? I know it's surly, but I struggled for that first couple of years. I had one boy. He's actually inattent with ADHD. I know it's early, but I struggled for that first couple of years. I had one boy. He's actually inattentive ADHD, but they present very differently. So you'll discover there's inattentive ADHD, there's hyperactive ADHD and then there's combined, the two combined.
Speaker 2:Anyway, my youngest was super different from other kids and I knew that there was something there, not particularly something wrong, but just something very different. And I struggled for a couple of years, really struggled. It was hard. And then, when he got diagnosed, it was like my whole world changed. It was like I put on my big girl pants, if that makes sense, and I was like, right, it's no longer. Why do I have all of these challenges and this struggle with his behaviors and the differences? But it was like this little kid needs me, he really needs me and he's come to me for a reason you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that was when I really started doing all of the developmental courses with kids, with the ADHD stuff, just learning so much about it. And then, within that, started recognizing everything in myself. And I remember the pediatrician said to me oh well, it's usually family related. And I laughed at the time and said, well, it wouldn't be their dad because he's very neurotypical. But it still took a year or two to start recognizing. Oh, I think that's me. I think that's me. So I went through this, as many late diagnosed women went through this process, and even though I knew when I got diagnosed it was still this massive process of recontextualizing everything, of some not too much regret, but a bit of sadness, a bit of relief, really understanding myself more. And then so I was already an executive coach, I was already a mindfulness teacher and learning all of this about this world, I just thought, hold on a minute who needs these internal skills more than people with ADHD.
Speaker 2:So I went on to do my ADHD training and I went on with ADCA and I ended up doing their advanced programs for 18 months. But you learn so much First, they make you learn so much about ADHD, and then obviously more advanced in the coaching set with the ADHD lens. I would say I wouldn't rather be doing anything else in the whole world. It is so rewarding when people come to me. They come to me thinking, quite often thinking that they need help with strategies, and what they discover is that I'm just thinking of a lady that I recently had and she said she was 48 actually and she said I knew I had the map, I even had the vehicle. I just couldn't get there. And she said I went to Jen thinking she's going to just make me do this. And she said I knew I had the map, I even had the vehicle, I just couldn't get there. And she said I went to Jen thinking she's going to just make me do this. And she said what I didn't realize was that I'd been trying for all these years to do things in a neurotypical way, when all I had to do was find my own way through it.
Speaker 2:I think that's what is so rewarding, and oftentimes as well, people come in the shoulds right, they come in this, I should be doing this and I should be doing that. When we discover underneath it and they say actually no, I shouldn't, who cares? This is the way that I want to authentically live my life, so helping people understand their ADHD systems in a way that doesn't slant towards I'm broken, I'm a deficit, and neither either. It's like it's not one or the other, it's not I'm broken, it's not. It's all superpowers, because there are big challenges, but it's more of.
Speaker 2:I have a different operating system. I haven't been taught this operating system when I was growing up, because 95% of the world are neurotypical. So let's relearn, let's unlearn what I've learned, let's relearn my own system and then find the strengths, find the way through. So yeah, and I think one thing to be very aware of is that the medical model is probably more focused on deficits, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but the medical model focuses on what's the deficits, how can we medicate that, whereas the coaching model focuses on this is a different operating system that we don't actually know. So how can we get to know the system so that we can find ways around it that flow in with our system rather than being a deficit space does that make?
Speaker 1:sense? Yes, definitely, and it must be a real challenge for people experiencing adhd, because the, like you said, 95 of the people are neurotypical. So, like the world is set up for, for that, and if you don't fit in, if you're, what is it? They say a square peg in a round hole. Absolutely, absolutely, just give them a, just give them something. Numb it like yes, and I'd love to, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your like. What is adhd? Because, although I've heard of it and, like so many people, it's like in you know, so many conversations come up with adults and you know whether it's them having the experience or them having their children be diagnosed with ADHD. It just seems like more and more people are saying that, um, but I don't really know what it is. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's a term that that we we've heard of and it's becoming more common, or seemingly. But what is it and how does it present and how do you experience it?
Speaker 2:so it's attention deficit is such a um, I think that's one out of you know so many things and it's well, it's stigmatized, but it also doesn't really convey the right thing. For a start, as we know, it's um, it's not often an attention deficit, but it's an attention surplus or attention just being in the different place to where it should be. So people with ADHD they often have how does my partner describe it? They'll be talking and they'll go, oh possum, so it's usually an attention surplus. There are so many traits If we think there's different parts of the brain that are responsible for different things. Right, so you've got. Well, there's many other parts involved, but the prefrontal cortex, so think of it as the exec function of the brain. So the exec function of the brain is responsible for forward planning, organization, memory, regulating, and then you've got this other part of the brain and the nervous system that's more kind of in the feeling and the emotions. So the the challenges with adhd are that the executive function often is not operating as it would in a neurotypical. So you'll see it described as so many different things. You'll see it described as so many different things. You'll see it described as the conductor of the brain or the policeman of the brain. I think Gabor Mate's got a book and he talks about the policeman's gone to sleep on the job. So the executive function is not working as it should.
Speaker 2:The way I like to describe it is that a neurotypical brain is more of an importance-based brain, so therefore it goes oh, that's important, I should do that. Then the right neurochemicals all fire up and the brain goes to do that, whereas an ADHD brain is more of an interest-based brain or an emotional significance-based brain. So the ADHD brain says that's important, I should do that. Yet the right neurochemicals don't always fire up to go and do the thing. So it's not necessarily based on importance. We know it's important, but if it's not emotionally significant, there will be a type of either hyper arousal, like going into an overwhelm around it, or there'll be a hypo arousal where you can't lift to do it. You know that whole procrastination thing. Sometimes there's just this kind of shutdown response. So it's a very nuanced, very nuanced and, I suppose, different operating system, but that's the easiest way I get to describe it. And that emotional significance is really important.
Speaker 2:And I'll give you an example. For example, the working memory. I went out and I had a big crack in my windscreen in the car and I just thought, right, I should get that fixed. Do you think I could remember, outside of seeing the crack in the car, to actually write it down or get it fixed? So I must have seen it a hundred times, but because it wasn't emotionally significant to me, nothing was done about it until the windscreen cracked. Well, of course I remember to do it then and I've always remembered to keep the windscreen intact from now on. But what I mean is, if there's no immediate or real consequence or reward attached, the brain can't hang on to it. So that's just working memory, emotional regulation. So I'm just thinking.
Speaker 2:Actually there's a guy called Dr Andrew Hill I can't remember where he works for, but he works in the brain and I once read that he said that people with ADHD produce much more theta brainwaves than neurotypical people, which was interesting. So there's studies in the brain, we've got the executive function and the regulation piece that is more challenged. Then it makes sense that people with ADHD have a bit more regulation challenges Because, say, if you're in your fight or flight, say if you're in your emotional, something hits your emotions quite hard, you're going to perceive things in a more negative light. Right, there's something in this. I think it's HBR, your brain in conflict, and it talks about how, when you're the connections between the limbic system and the different parts when we're in fight or flight, they're constricted. So we're only able to see in black and white, we're only able to see in this kind of I'm right, you're wrong.
Speaker 2:So perception for people with ADHD is sometimes a little bit more, um, I don't want to say negative, but sometimes it is more a bit ah, what's happening when we're in fight or flight? Um, there's a couple of different parts of and this is in general, by the way, that should be said that I always say in general, not every person with ADHD. We've all got our stories and our upbringing and our different systems, but in general, people with ADHD have a is it a higher or a lower? Hrv, heart rate variability. Which one's the one that's less?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:Lower is not as favorable HRV, so it must be lower, so it's really interesting. Lower is not as favorable, so it must be lower.
Speaker 2:So it's the stress tolerance, basically the body's ability to come back from stress. There's also they talk about how the ADHD system can often mimic a trauma system. So it's like that nervous system. Yeah, janina Fisher, she's a trauma expert and I heard her once talking about um adhd and trauma and how the systems can mimic each other in that they're um they get knocked into that fight or flight more easily. So in general, people are born with adhd, with that um biology that is more reactive rather than responsive. Does that make sense? Yes, but um. One of the things that I love and is absolutely true and I teach it, is um Deb Dana, she's an expert on the nervous system and she talks about how biology shapes experience, but experience also shapes biology right and Nadine.
Speaker 1:I've heard you talking about each mind and mindset right yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yes, people with ADHD are typically born with a more sensitive sensitive is the right word sensitive nervous system. But we can also choose, if we have conscious choice, to work on that and develop and regulate our own biology. And when I did that mindfulness that few months and what I went on to do afterwards is a hundred percent like evidence I remember my sister. I hadn't seen her for years and she came out to Australia to see me and she said, jen, you're so different. I said, oh, it must be all the mindfulness, but it was just this different. I'll tell you what I was like before.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't have a lot of patience, oh right, I didn't have a lot of patience, but, um, yeah, so it's this really kind of nuanced, different system. But I guess what I'm saying again out of that is that once we get to know our system, we can then have a choice over what to do with that. I mean, when I learn the answer to working memory, I'll come back to you, but with most other things, yeah. So what is ADHD? It is so nuanced. You've got all of the working memory, you've got the rejection. Sensitive, you've got the. Adhd is just a different operating system that has all of these different parts that when we get to know them sometimes in isolation, sometimes together we can then get through and yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay. So how do we differentiate? Right, because, okay, lots of people let's, so let's just use. I might not be a very good example, but a woman our age who is busy, frazzled, got well, I've got a lot of tabs open on my computer. I can tell you that much. You know, jumping from one thing to the other, forgets their keys, does all of these things. But if you go online and do a survey, have I got ADHD, like? I feel like you could easily tick a lot of those boxes and you know an online program could tell you that you've got that. But is there a difference between that person who's like, got a lot of things on the go, is a bit forgetful, you know, does it start to affect your life in a different way? I guess that's kind of like. How do we know the difference?
Speaker 2:How do we know the difference?
Speaker 1:Whether it's you know a lifestyle, know a lifestyle related? Yeah, we're all busy distracted you know, we've got our phone, our computer, our. You know someone's ringing a list of you know a mile long and you know a lot of people.
Speaker 2:I think I feel like associate that kind of attention deficit with, oh yes, the amount of people that have said, oh, I think I've got a bit of ADHD? Yeah, they're clearly very neurotypical, right, but they're just overwhelmed or they've just got along to do this, but also I think that the messaging is is kind of like distorted.
Speaker 1:So very yeah, so how do, how do we tell the difference? How would you tell the difference?
Speaker 2:so I would say that somebody that is neurotypical and without adhd if they're saying you know like I feel like I've got adhd, or there's a bit of overwhelm, there's a lot of situational and environmental things that play into it, but if you take that person out of a busy life and overwhelmed life, are those traits still in play? Do they still have the working memory impairments, do they still have the emotional dysregulation? Do they still have all of the things that come along with ADHD, or do those things go away? And I think the world that we're living in now, this overstimulated world, has probably also made that overlap harder to see. And so, unless you are deeply knowledgeable about it, I can understand why it gets belittled. I can understand why people that don't know it deeply would think, well, what are they talking about? Know, I get that too, or how do I know? But it's I would say, if you took that person out of the busy, crazy environment that we're living in today and all of those things were still in play, then that's a good indicator yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Um, so if someone thought that they might be, what would they do? Would they go to a doctor or a specialist, or like, does a doctor, does it feel like a doctor knows enough about it to be able to, um, say yes, you are, or no, you're not? Or would they refer? You on or how does that all work?
Speaker 2:yeah, as far as I know, doctors do not get a lot of training at all, maybe a day or something like that. You know, it's probably a bit like the menopause thing five minutes training um, I shouldn't be sarcastic, but um, it's typically a psychiatrist. Okay, interestingly, psychiatrists I remember when I first got diagnosed and I had so many questions from my psychiatrist and he just kind of didn't really answer any of them. And my other psychiatrist he was amazing actually and when I went in first to see him, this was for medication and he said to me well, I'm a bit intimidated by you now and I said why? He said you're an ADHD coach. And I said, oh, yes, I've been told I know about 90% more than you.
Speaker 2:I was joking, but what I'm saying is, yes, you do go to a psychiatrist, but they won't necessarily know the practical aspects, the nuanced aspects, they just know it from a medical standpoint. So who do you go to formally Sure a psychiatrist to get diagnosed, but then who do you go to to learn more about it? Obviously, a lot of people go attitude and well, yeah, people that have been not only living it but learning it and helping people understand it for a long time, yeah, yeah, I've just the reason I ask that is because you, you know there is that differing experience, but I don't know, it feels like it's coming up more and more.
Speaker 1:Like you said, there's people that go, oh, I think I've got it, and then they do an online quiz that tells them that they do have it, yeah, and so then they fly the flag.
Speaker 2:But there's obviously some real yeah, some real differences, I think this is really important because I, like, I just want the listeners to understand from someone who knows what they're talking about, not Google, yes, and maybe I should touch a bit on the inattentive versus hyperactive side, actually, because that might be quite helpful. So, and I'll give you an example my son, without knowing my older son, without having known any of this stuff, I would never known about the inattentive. So inattentive ADHD presents very, very different. That person might look very placid and they might look like they're away with the fairies and they might be not interrupty or not emotionally dysregulated. Interestingly, I think that it was Russell Barclay who was arguing for emotional dysregulation to be included in the DSM, but not for inattentive people with ADHD.
Speaker 2:So it presents very differently with ADHD. So it presents very differently. Hyperactive is much more obvious. Obviously, it might look like talking really fast and talking about 10 different things at once and jumping to different conversations. Or it might look like you know that classic not being able to sit still or getting hyper focused into things that's another thing is hyper focus for people with ADHD. You know you might get stuck in something for hours, so and then you've got combined, which is the inattentive and the hyperactive together. So you've got all sorts of strengths and challenges and, um sorry possum, what was the question?
Speaker 1:do you know what? I got a possum as well. No, um, what was the question? I was listening, so I was listening intently. Um, was it? How would you know? Or something? Yeah, you were talking about the different, the two different. You answered the. You answered the question and then we went on to the two different types and have, yeah, how they can be quite different in the way someone experiences them.
Speaker 2:Right, the inattentive compared to the hyperactive yeah, and, and the hyperactive type is that kind of um. It's interesting because you said something earlier about that. How do you tell a neurotypical and that overwhelm? So typically for somebody with hyperactive adhd, typically the overwhelm will often be caused not by external factors but by internal factors, and I often get people with ADHD. They're hyperactive and they're saying I just don't have time, I'll never have time to do all the things, but all of the things are kind of self-imposed.
Speaker 2:Things does that make sense it's like you feel like you feel like there's never enough time. You feel like and I've got people that come in with how are they going to get all of this done? And when we take, take it all out, some of those things are hobbies or activities that should be nourishing, but they're kind of turned into tasks. They feel like they have to and they feel like how are they going to get to them? So it's like an internal overwhelm, no matter what's going on externally. Okay, yeah, and something I just thought of on that as well, is the time blindness space, which is another massive part of ADHD. I have met barely anyone with ADHD that doesn't have the time blindness piece. So Gabor Mate describes it as whatever was supposed to develop the maturity around ability to see time hasn't developed. And I'll give you an example. I had somebody come in and she said I want strategies to be on ADHD friendly, strategies to be more efficient in my workplace, because I'm not getting everything done. So, as always, I kind of sat and went okay, so what's actually underneath this? Let's before we move to the strategy. So I said, okay, just explain your working week to me, what you doing, what are you usually? And we're about 20 minutes into the session and she realized she was trying to do 80 hours work in a 40-hour week and I said to her so can I just check in? Are we still looking for ADHD friendly strategies? And she went oh well, I'm seriously so often this time blindness piece also plays into the adhd system because when we estimate things we might estimate they take an hour.
Speaker 2:They're gonna take two or three hours because we see things at face value. We don't calculate all of the little things that are involved. Say, taking the kids to the pool, it's just the hour. Taking the kids to the pool, it's just the hour. Taking the kids to the pool, it's not half an hour. Either side, wrangling the kids or commuting, or you know, we just see the thing so that, yeah, that what is ADHD?
Speaker 2:That time blindness, that internal overwhelm trying to not being able to estimate and forecast time well, and also, if we've got, we're better off just waking up at six in the morning, rolling out of bed and getting straight to a workout. You'll know this, I don't miss my Mondays, do I? No? But if you give us too much time to get to places, the possums will start and we'll get distracted. And then does that make sense? So it's like that's my blindness. So if we've got too much time and then if we've got 10 minutes for something we think it's just not, now we've got a world of time. We try and get the washing done and the dinner cooked.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I'm nadine hey, I'm just um, I'm just just checking my notes. Okay, let's talk about some of the things that I want to talk a bit more about. Your specific work, and you've touched on it a couple of times but I'd love to talk now that you've sort of talked about how we define what ADHD is and how someone might figure out what's going on. But how much does? And, like I even mentioned, you know, the, the distractions that we all have in our everyday lives and how people can misconstrued that is that the right word, misconstrued that as um, um, having adhd. Yes, how much do those lifestyle things affect someone with adhd? Like technology, all right, having too many tabs open on your computer, your phone going off, some people having two phones, you know, um, um and how much of how much can be resolved by? I'm asking too many things at once, yeah?
Speaker 2:so okay, let me take a step back, jen, sorry you asked me two things and I'll give you 10 answers recently that children with ADHD, like a large proportion of them, improved significantly with lifestyle changes, specifically diet.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that children, especially when they're exposed to technology, when they're exposed to unfavorable foods, can have behavioral issues. So I guess this is a two-part question. Is it the chicken or the egg, you know? Yes, um, and do removing those things help a child or an adult with managing?
Speaker 2:yeah so various different things. I've got a friend in eng that had an ADHD support person that actually favoured technology and giving them technology, I think only for certain amounts of time, but they considered that their downtime. So I think the answer is it sometimes depends. I can certainly give you my own experience and that of my kids. So the first thing you said, I think, was diet my. Before my youngest was diagnosed, he was gosh. He was probably only about two years old when we got asked to leave the swim school one of the swim schools. That was the first swim school. The second one we also got asked to leave, but he was um. He was sitting on the edge of the pool and he just couldn't listen to instruction. He kept jumping in.
Speaker 2:They were thinking he was being naughty, but he was actually just really overstimulated the sounds in the pool anyway around that um same time we were having a lot of issues with him in daycare and he was in a big daycare um, and at that time I didn't know what was happening. But I just wanted to try different things. So I actually went to Sue Dengate's Fed Up. She had four boys. She does this thing called Fed Up and it's all about diet and colors and preservatives and anyway tried that and I basically went around the supermarkets for weeks on end and just looked at all of the packets Do they have those E's in them that she says don't do? And within a month the daycare teacher said to me that is a different child.
Speaker 2:wow, that's scary really it's crazy and I'm not great on it now because I'm not a great foodie person, but if I see that things are happening then I'll pull back on preservatives and e-numbers, and so I wish I could say to you that we live clean. But you know, we're human, we don't. But, um, at that time it made a huge difference for him and I thought, geez, jen, for breakfast you've been giving him one of those twiglet, twiggy things, those processed, and that was kind of what I was feeding him, you know. But then it went to like chicken and rice and all of these clean things. So food for us did make a big, big difference, especially at that age.
Speaker 2:The other thing that made a huge difference huge, and it's similar for adults is when I say psychology, I don't mean psychology sessions, but changing his mindset. So we went into this deep parenting program for behaviors when he was I think he was about three, and the difference was amazing. We were told to focus 20%, very quietly, on the negative and 80% just expand the positive. Oh my gosh, I love it when you did that. And when he was, when he wasn't displaying the good behaviors, we were to really quietly say I don't like that and then move him on, and anyway I won't go into it. But we had this big process of how to manage behaviors with him and basically he was um.
Speaker 2:This was a year or two later. You know, I think it was when he was about five. We'd done all this work with him. We saw the differences within a couple of months. It was insane. He was about five. We'd done all this work with him. We saw the differences within a couple of months. It was insane. It was really cool, just really giving him that time and space, getting down on his level, understanding him, hearing him. And then I remember I think he'd gone through a bit of a rough patch. But then the school phoned me when he was I think it was about five he was in kinder year one and I thought, oh God, what's he done? And they said to me I just wanted to show, I just wanted to share with you the leadership qualities that were exhibited by him, because another kid punched him in the face or something. But the way that he handled it was amazing. And so when I say psychology, I don't mean psychology sessions, I just mean your own psychology with that person.
Speaker 2:I don't mean psychology sessions, I just mean your own psychology with that person and I think adults are pretty similar that the way that they have their mindset about themselves and the way that their internal self is, you know, if you think that you're crappy and you're broken and you're, you know you're going to be displaying those behaviors, whereas if you believe that actually I'm really cool and I'm good and it's like um, yeah, I can't think of the word that I was going to use. So in answer to your question, chicken and egg, I do not think that ADHD is created or removed by things like food and therapies and things like that, but I do think that they are all huge components of that ecosystem.
Speaker 1:yeah, sure, yeah yeah, very interesting, like what you said about the psychology of, and like the parenting tactics, I guess, because I think that we can all take some. Take some tips from that doesn't matter whether you've got an ADHD child or not like encouraging them, listening to them, accepting them, rather than like pulling them up on all of the shit things all of the time our attention goes to where they do the crap things unless we're conscious about it and it's like this real.
Speaker 2:It doesn't happen by itself. It's a skill that we have to put time into and learn.
Speaker 1:Yeah definitely and I was actually going to ask you about that in relation to someone who's been diagnosed, because I think even the word diagnosed someone I'm sure I heard somewhere that that was not like the ideal term to use because diagnosed is associated with illness or something wrong with you is there another term?
Speaker 2:I use the word system a lot. I mean, is there another term? I say I have an ADHD system rather than I have? Adhd, yeah so yeah, I mean diagnosis. I guess you can have any diagnosis of anything. Does it have to be negative? I don't actually know the answer.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that if you go to someone for a diagnosis, it it has the connotation typically medical and there's something because there's something wrong or that you're trying to get something fixed. So can you talk me to me a little bit about that, like that idea of um you know working with someone's strengths instead of like, because I would expect that for a lot of the time, people would come to you because there's something wrong with them that they need to fix yes, and so how do?
Speaker 1:how do you turn that around so that they actually do realize that?
Speaker 2:it's not that they're not broken yeah, yeah, and so, interestingly, my approach, I guess, is I love Brené Brown's work I don't know if you've heard it on fitting in versus belonging.
Speaker 2:Okay, and she says that fitting in is the opposite of belonging, and you'll see where I'm going in a minute. But so what a lot of people with ADHD are trying to do is oh, I've had this diagnosis, now how can I fit myself in with this neurotypical world, rather than belong to myself? And what they're doing is, in essence, kind of rejecting themselves. Right, if you're trying to fit in and Brené Brown just describes it beautifully and it's something that I found in the ADHD world and then when I saw Brené's work, I was like, ah, this matches so well. So when you're trying to fit in with society or in the shoulds or fix your apparently broken parts, then you're rejecting yourself. So my approach is to flow in, not fit in, right? So it's like how do I now flow in with my system? And, if you can remember it, can you ask me that question again, because there was something else significant that just came up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just like how do you flip it like from it being a something that needs to be fixed to?
Speaker 2:something that is like a strength Often in our coaching sessions, and one just that was right something. An example came up from for me. There was a guy and he had his first session with me. It was the most beautiful session. He said I feel real shame because I've lived in this house for over a year and I never take the house keys out with me. And he thought he wanted help with his working memory and he's like how do I take the house keys out and not lose them? I said well, what happens? He said I always have to get new keys cut. I lose them all the time. And he said I just leave my door open not open but unlocked. He said I feel this real shame about it because I should be able to. Normal person takes their keys out. And I said to him okay, do you live in a safe area? He said yeah, it's really safe. I said so is that not your own wisdom, telling you that you don't want to lose your keys and so you're actually being really wise by doing that system that way? And he's just oh, nadine, he's come. I can't tell you the last year of seeing him from the start to the finish, and the message that he sent to me just before Christmas talked about authenticity and he said this year, my authenticity that is the word for me. And he said I love little me, childhood me, I love adult me and I no longer need to change for somebody else. If he's unhappy with something and he wants it for himself, he'll change it. So in answer to your question, how do you flip that? I think that you support people to see that the things that they're doing are not necessarily wrong. Sometimes they might be not the most efficient way, but in that case and that story there was nothing wrong with that. It was like, actually, that is the wisest thing you could do. Well, done my um.
Speaker 2:I quite often hang my washing up on my balconies or in a house. It was the internal staircase and my children's father came to visit and he looked at me. He said don't you have a washing line? I said we do have a washing line, but it's all the way out the back and if I hang the washing out there, I will forget it's there for days and it'll rain on it and then it'll dry again. So that's another example of using your wisdom and it's like I don't care that it's hanging on the internal staircase. I'll remember it's there, I, I can see it, it's tangible. So that's that kind of flipping things, you know. It's like I don't have to do things the way that everybody does them, I just need to find my own systems and flow in. Not fit in. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Nice. Can you talk a little bit about? You mentioned earlier on in the piece emotional regulation or dysregulation.
Speaker 2:How does that?
Speaker 1:present itself. What does that mean? Is that a common thing that people might see?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep. So emotional dysregulation can take many forms and again, it's not a wrong thing or there's nothing wrong with it. I can imagine I can remember I saw somebody say I wish people would stop telling me that I needed to regulate myself. And I think it's not nobody's saying suppress your feelings, or you know that's like the opposite. But the emotional dysregulation I think mainly comes from that oversensitive nervous system things. So rejection, sensitive dysphoria if you've heard of RSD, so that is a form of intense emotional dysregulation. So what that means is that that sensitive nervous system, when somebody perceives a criticism or they're worried that they might be criticized, their nervous system gets really overactive and then they go into protection mode, like it's like a safety detector. Does that make sense? Yeah, so it's like, and if we think about emotional regulation is often a safety detector Am I safe? Am I not safe? Am I psychologically safe or am I psychologically unsafe?
Speaker 2:So you get emotional dysregulation all sorts of ways. I mean, obviously there's sadness, anger, all of the range. But for people with ADHD, I think a lot of the emotional dysregulation can stem from a root nervous system response of I'm not safe. So if you think about that, emotions come from our body mainly right. It's not the end result, that narrative in our thinking brain. So if you think about that more primitive part of us, something happens and it affects our nervous system and our emotional. We kind of go into a bit of fight or flight. That's our body. And then we go ah, what's happening? Ooh, I feel this horrible feeling and then comes the story right Then comes the narrative that we create from it.
Speaker 2:Whereas if we can get a handle on what's happening first in the body and go, oh, I just felt anger, what's that about? Just before it hits the brain, just before it hits that narrative, then we can stop ourselves. And I can remember years ago that's one of the things I learned to do was be more connected to my body. I wasn't so connected to my body and then, when I was, I could feel I'm feeling that, feeling what's happening, I'm getting angry. Is there another perspective? Is it absolutely that, before it goes into complete story, before it goes into, we're kind of locked into this and then the ruminations, and then that you know absolutely fact, when, as we know, our thoughts are not facts at all and our perceptions are very wobbly. So, yeah, the emotional dysregulation part are very wobbly. So, yeah, the emotional dysregulation part, that I'd say that for most people, rsd rejection, sensitive dysphoria, is a huge part of the emotional dysregulation.
Speaker 1:Yeah so what's happening, then?
Speaker 2:that that someone's thinking that they're going to be rejected for having a particular emotion, or so no they reject themselves like circumstance or a particular thing and I'll just my brain just sort of jump to the workplace. And so for a lot of people in the workplace, when that RSD is present, they feel like they can't speak up, they don't have a voice, they can't put healthy boundaries in place. They go go into people pleasing. So RSD at its core we all have it right, it's a human safety mechanism is to be a bit fearful of rejection, and in a healthy way, not a disproportionate way, and we go, oh, I don't want to speak up in that situation or I don't want to put myself out or whatever it is. But for many people with ADHD that RSD is disproportionate.
Speaker 2:So it will limit them in certain ways. It will manifest in, maybe in defensiveness, in anger, because they perceive they're being hurt in a relationship, or it will manifest in people pleasing at work and just saying, sure, I can take that on, when they've already got 10 other projects and they know they'll have to work on Saturday night. So it's like, yeah, it comes from a disproportionate weight on what other people will think.
Speaker 2:And if you think if somebody had a really high sense of self or a really comfort level in emotional, psychological safety, they wouldn't be as worried about what other people think, so they'd be able to say, oh, I can put that boundary in place actually, and nothing terrible is going to happen, whereas RSD is more like a catastrophic thinking. Something's going to happen from small things. Does that make sense? Yes, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'd love to hear more more about how your work actually works, how your coaching works, who you work with. But question and it kind of dropped in at the beginning but we didn't really go into much detail detail about it and that's and this is, I guess, a concern with for me with people who are doing the, the online survey and you know, and I don't suppose they just be medicated for ADHD Is it necessary? I know that you don't want to like tell people they shouldn't be, but like you can have an opinion.
Speaker 2:You can do a disclaimer. I will just put a disclaimer on. You can do a disclaimer.
Speaker 1:You're not a medical professional, but you have your own experience.
Speaker 2:And we're talking like clients experience, so I can I can share a bit. So your question was around medication. Did you say should?
Speaker 1:people be easily well like. I feel like and it's not just with someone who has adhd, but you know someone with perimenopause symptoms who gets given medication. You know it's like the handouts Is it necessary? So 100% depends as a first line of.
Speaker 2:Again, it depends, because I'll give you another example One of my clients really really bad place and had a really strong gambling addiction. The day that he got diagnosed and started taking medication, gambling addiction went away by itself. So there was obviously a craving in him and something that felt like it was missing. And quite often for people with adhd, when they take the medication it feels a bit of a gap of something okay that they need or something like that. But for everybody it's different. That is a hundred percent, not that is not a blanket um other people.
Speaker 2:I got told by a doctor friend when my son was maybe six. Don't you think you're being selfish by not medicating him? And as seeing the psychology, the food, the, everything just changed our whole worlds. So my personal opinion is what's the purpose? What is the purpose of the medication? And I do get a lot of people coming to me and actually when I used to do parent coaching, the, the parents talked about the medication.
Speaker 2:I had one young boy. He was 11 and mum was beside herself. She said she'd fallen into chronic depression. She's emailed me at first and she listed out 12 different specialists that he had seen functional doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, blah, blah. Anyway, even taking him for the um I can't remember what the sessions are, the neurofeedback or whatever it is, but um and she said to me he'd been on all different medications. He had oppositional defiance, he was just he'd get out of bed shouting f off to the world. He was only 11 years old and she said to me she said the medication made him like a zombie. He used to play basketball all the time for his hyperactivity. Medication made him like a zombie. He used to play basketball all the time for his hyperactivity. Medication made him like a zombie.
Speaker 2:And I said to her what was the purpose of the medication? She said I don't know. The psychiatrist just gave it to us. So you got diagnosed and they just gave it. So I don't know what's behind that. You know, I don't know whether they did talk about purpose I'm not judging on that but what I'm saying is my thing would always be what's the purpose?
Speaker 2:And actually I coached her for a few sessions and then the boy came to see me and he just first thing I did, he walked in the room. I said, oh man, I can't even find the light switch in here, which was not a lie. I said do you think you can find it? And straight away he looked at me and he found this light switch. And then he came in and anyway, I did not treat him like he was a problem to be fixed, yeah. So I did his strength survey and I said and he was naughty in school, and I said I bet this, I bet there's some teachers that you're not naughty with. And he went oh yeah, I missed so-and-so in science class and he loved her and it was like aha.
Speaker 2:So this isn't a deficit of yours, this is a situational thing, and it ended up that he felt emotionally unsafe in certain situations. So what we needed to do with him was make him feel valued, make him have his strengths, put him in situations where and he actually went on to not have the medication. So adults are very um, some people it makes them more anxious, some people it is the magic bullet and their emotions are wonderful. And for most probably about 70 percent it's there's a cost and there's a benefit. So you know, just like most medication. So my answer to that is absolutely my personal opinion is it depends. Let's find out the purpose. What are you actually trying to do with that?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, and I feel like I guess you know a big concern when you're hearing of children taking medication, is that it's because they don't necessarily. It's the square peg in the round hole in a classroom situation where a teacher's trying to take, you know, control over a whole bunch of kids and if there's one, that's, you know, disorderly for, for whatever reason, um, the the parents beside themselves and, and you know, someone says take this, but they do like they can turn into zombies and that's really quite yeah sad it's not.
Speaker 2:I must say it's not the majority. That is, that is, certain cases. So I must say it's not the majority. And I'll also say that there's a lot of research out there that shows that medication is wonderful and it has changed a lot of people's lives. And there's also the there's studies to say that people with ADHD on average and this sounds bad but their life expectancy is around 13 years shorter. And when you look into the top reasons for that super surprising the top reasons for that were around things like impulsivity, and so if medication tempers impulsivity, then it's got to be better in the long run. So what I'm saying is medication has been life-changing, life-saving for a lot of people with adhd, but it's not always the case and it's not always the right approach to the right avenue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really depends yeah, and it's important to get that right, yeah, yeah, okay, we're getting close to the end of our hour. I'm not going to like cut us off as soon as we get there, but, um, we'll start to round things out a little bit. Um, so let's talk a bit about what you do as a coach, because you've got your own business and you work mostly online. Or do you work face to face, and who do you work with online now, actually, okay, so, yeah, um, mostly adults now, or do you still work with parents who are trying to understand children with ADHD?
Speaker 2:yeah, I do do a bit of parent coaching. Still, it's definitely not my main. At least 90 percent of mine is with adults and when people have asked me to coach their children in the past, I typically say that I will coach them to understand their child understand the ADHD part, because they're in the home.
Speaker 1:24 7, I'm not yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's what really makes the difference, and the only reason why I've coached a few kids is because I first met the parents and the kids have wanted to. That's another thing. Coaching in itself, you kind of have to want it. So coaching only really works if you want it, and sometimes if it's the parent that wants it and not the kid, then it's probably the parent that needs it. There are plenty of beautiful ADHD coaches that do coach kids and families, and some of them have been family trained as well, so they're actually trained in the dynamics of families, and I have got an amazing network of ADHD coaches and they're, all I can't tell you, a more supportive profession. They are really, really just open and lovely and we're kind of all in it for the cause rather than the business aspect, which is just beautiful.
Speaker 1:And so when someone comes to you like, first of all, how does well, obviously, podcasts help? How does someone find out that ADHD coach is even a thing An adult like does someone who's an adult with adhd? Is it like they? They they've just found out and they they're like I've got to do something about this, I need some help. And so they find someone like jen or you know if you've got a whole mixture of people like people who've been trying the trying to live with it and not getting along, or yeah, it's definitely a mixed.
Speaker 2:It's not all newly diagnosed. It's probably people in the majority. Maybe they've been diagnosed for about a year or something and they've been down some rabbit holes and they've been trying medication and they've come across this coaching thing and they never knew it was a thing. Um, but not everyone. I mean everybody comes to it from a different way. A lot of people they're psychiatrists says some okay, you could really do with finding a good adhd coach, because it's like the psychiatrist there for the medication side.
Speaker 2:But then they say, if you find an adhd coach, they're the ones that can help you with the skills, because as they say, pills don't teach skills right and it's like, and also it doesn't magically make you interested in the things that you weren't, or it doesn't magically make you know how your brain works, because when we're coaching we go didn't know that about myself, and then you can apply that in different situations.
Speaker 2:So it's almost like you get to know your brain, like I see what you're trying to do and take a different way around it. So, yeah, really different routes. Michelle Toner, who is the godmother of ADHD coaching, she's done an amazing job of getting um, getting information about coaching around two psychiatrists so that now a lot of psychiatrists in australia have that in their toolkit so they can also offer to people. Here's your diagnosis and this is what's going on, and I'll be able to support you from a medication standpoint and a good coach will be able to support you with going forward in your life. How do you now navigate that ADHD system now that you know it's there?
Speaker 1:yeah, cool. And how long would someone um have coaching?
Speaker 2:for great question. So I always say like to coach myself out of a job? No, no, no, actually I say that I still have coaching myself. I think that we've all got things that we can't see and we've all got situations that might be helped with coaching. But as a um what is the word acute, that's probably not the word as a kind of um, ongoing, consistent support mechanism. I I say that after about say, 10 sessions, hopefully you now have the keys to the kingdom. And I had a client recently and he was. He actually said, he actually asked me quite a similar question and I said to him you've kind of got the keys to the kingdom. I've just helped facilitate that.
Speaker 2:They were always in you, you just didn't know yourself. So coaching is a very. We believe that everybody has their own gold. We're just helping them find it. So it's not a hierarchical position, it's not a I know more than you or I'm better than you. It's just that I have the skillset to go on that detective hunt with you and ask you all the right questions and help you see what you can't see.
Speaker 2:And I had somebody just this morning and we were going through the session and she said, jen, I just she said, kind of want you to just give me that strategic steps. And I just smiled and she said, you know, we sort of went share, share what you can see. Anyway, there was oh, I'm going to it. But there was a conflict between her mindset and what she was trying to do. And just by mirroring that terror, it's like we hold a mirror up to what people can't see. It's like you'll be in your business and talking this, that and the other and I'll be like, huh, I'm just going to point that out to you. Do you realize the way that you said that? And they'll be like, oh no, what was that about? Yeah, so that coaching is really. So back to your.
Speaker 2:How long do you have coaching? For Some people, the shortest is probably about six sessions. That's normally parent coaching, actually Some people around 10 sessions. I get people to invest in a journey because I say this is about change. You can back out at any time, of course, but this is not a one and done, but typically around 10 sessions, and then people might come back for maintenance. They might come back. For some people I have come back once a month. Some people I have come back twice a year. You know, it's a bit like maybe if you've been through psychology and then you have something acute happen in your life and you go. Coaching would really help with that. So in general, I think that teaching people how to manage themselves and giving them that own skill set because I have a lot of clients that now coach themselves it's wonderful, great what they are coaches, they've become coaches or they know oh, I do have a couple of those as well.
Speaker 2:You know, ones that now know what questions to ask themselves. They're not stuck anymore and they know. My hope for people that go through coaching is that by the end of whatever, they now know how to get themselves unstuck and they'll only come to me for things where they can't, but they learn their own skills while they're in coaching. It's superb.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing how can people find you, jen, we've got your info in the guest directory so they can obviously find you there, but is there anywhere that you generally direct?
Speaker 2:I'm smiling because I remember you said to me you only put gin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't worry, I've added Lewis onto the end, and if the links aren't in there for your website, then we can add them, but it is that the best way to find you is to um.
Speaker 2:Is there like a main directory for ADHD coaches, or yes, absolutely yes, because I certainly won't be the right coach for everybody and I think that most coaches are at capacity as well, or full, near capacity, sometimes, like we have been flow, but um so ADHD coaches Australasia is the best directory because everybody on there is qualified, they're all trained, they're all qualified.
Speaker 2:it's an amazing directory. It's the one that the psychiatrists give out and everybody's at different qualification levels, but also there's all different profiles, so you might want somebody for your child, you might want somebody that's been through the same experience as you. There's a lot of people that go oh gosh, that really resonates, and so there's males, there's females, you know there's all. There's really really good selection and I would say that anybody on there, because there's also a lot of coaches that are not trained or qualified I don't just mean ADHD, but in the world, and you don't want to end up with somebody that's just calling themselves a coach and hasn't had the right training. So, adhd coaches Australasia is the most comprehensive and the one that's the most formally.
Speaker 1:yeah, everybody on there is trained, so you're obviously on there and um we'll share your personal info yeah your website, um, in the guest directory as well and in the notes. Jen, thank you so much for joining us. It's been really insightful and like, yeah, just a really super important topic because it's, like so prominent in today's society but I feel like we don't know that much about it and so having people like you that can educate us is um super important and really helpful so thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've probably just given you the tip of the iceberg. It's so nuanced so but hopefully that information helps people that's great, amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much and congratulations on popping your cherry thank you so much for making it so fun.
Speaker 1:Thanks, jen. Before you go, can I ask you a small favor? If you've enjoyed this show or any of the other episodes that you've listened to, then I'd really appreciate it if you took a couple of moments to hit subscribe. This is a great way to increase our listeners and get the word out there about all of the wonderful guests that we've had on the podcast. If you'd like to further support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to buymeacoffeecom forward slash, life, health, the universe. You can find that link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.