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The Midlife Rebel Podcast
How do you know if you're a Midlife Rebel?
Maybe it starts with a feeling. A growing sense of discomfort that something isn't quite right. The life you've been living might look perfectly fine from the outside, but something inside you is asking for change.
Maybe some of the rules and expectations you've lived by simply don't fit anymore.
That's where rebellion begins.
Being a Midlife Rebel isn't about breaking rules for the sake of it. It's about questioning the rules, stories and expectations that have shaped the life you've been living — and deciding for yourself what stays, what goes and what comes next.
Because rebellion can lead to personal revolution. And personal revolution creates freedom: the freedom to change your mind, rewrite your story, experiment, begin again and create a life that fits who you are now.
I'm Nadine, and each week I sit down with experts, teachers, authors, coaches, researchers, wisdom keepers and ordinary people with extraordinary stories to explore the many ways our lives can change in midlife.
We talk about identity, health and ageing, menopause, relationships, purpose, spirituality, psychology, courage, reinvention and the experiences that make us question the status quo.
These conversations bring together different perspectives, lived experiences, ideas and practical wisdom so that you feel supported as you navigate your own midlife journey — and a little less alone as you figure out what comes next.
Because there's a little bit of rebel in all of us.
Contact Nadine: https://midliferebelpodcast.com/contact
The Midlife Rebel Podcast
Outer Chaos, Inner Calm: The Transformative Power of Breath with Anthony Abbagnano
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Can Your Breath Change Your Life?
Can something as simple as your breath hold the key to healing, clarity, and emotional transformation?
In this powerful episode, Anthony Abbagnano — founder of the Alchemy of Breath and author of Outer Chaos, Inner Calm — shares how breathwork became his path to awakening.
His first spiritual breakthrough came through a paper bag breathing experiment at age seven — a moment that would anchor him through life’s darkest chapters. Years later, facing a serious health crisis, Anthony discovered that surrender isn’t weakness — it’s a conscious choice rooted in wisdom, strength, and trust.
Through his signature approach to conscious connected breathing, Anthony teaches how we can shift from fight-flight-freeze to rest-digest states, regulate our emotions, and access deep inner insight. He poses a profound question:
“What if your ability to take a breath when you don’t want to is a true measure of emotional intelligence?”
We explore how the Hero’s Journey mirrors the midlife experience — especially the transition from crisis to awakening. Those “doldrum” moments where we feel stuck, anxious, or lost are often the turning points that invite us to step into deeper self-leadership. Through the breath, we become the detective of our experience rather than the victim of it.
Anthony’s new book, Outer Chaos, Inner Calm, distills decades of experience into practical tools for finding inner calm amid outer chaos, reclaiming your creative power, and becoming the author of your own life.
Want to begin? Try coherence breathing: 5 seconds in, 5 seconds out — and notice how your body responds.
Visit our website to find out more about this week's guest.
All of our guests, including this one, are included in our Guest Directory so that you can find out more about them and the work that they do.
https://midliferebelpodcast.com/guest-directory
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Introduction to Anthony Abagnano
Speaker 1Welcome to Life , health and the Universe , bringing you stories that connect us , preventative and holistic health practices to empower us and esoteric wisdom to enlighten us . We invite you to visit our website , where you can access the podcast , watch on YouTube and find all of our guests in the guest directory . Visit lifehealththeuniversepodcastpageio . Now let's get stuck into this week's episode . Today , I'm joined by Anthony Abananyo . Anthony is the founder of Alchemy of Breath , a globally recognized breathwork community that has helped thousands reclaim their power through the transformative power of the breath . He's also the author of Outer Chaos Inner Calm , a recently released book where he shares his personal story and details how he overcame profound challenges through breathwork and mindfulness , leading him to create a life of purpose and balance . Thank you so much for joining me . Did I get your surname pronounced correctly or did I mess ?
Speaker 2it up . You got the pronunciation perfect . It was just on the wrong syllable , but you know it was remarkable , actually considering how difficult a name it is to pronounce it's Abagnano .
Speaker 1Abagnano .
Speaker 2Yeah , so thank you anyway . Thank you for such a fine introduction .
Speaker 1Thank you for joining me . I think you're in a pretty busy season at the moment . I've been receiving your emails and reading about your retreats that you've got happening in Tuscany right now . So are you teaching at those retreats ?
Speaker 2I do . I do teach at them . Yeah , both I oversee and do some teaching . I do less teaching now and more sort of ambassadorial work . So I travel a lot and a lot of public speaking and podcasts and summits and that sort of thing , but I still enjoy most of all . My biggest joy is to really just be with the people and to accompany them on their inner journey yes , that somewhat trepidatious journey that sometimes we try to avoid , and so I love to be with people and support them during those more difficult patches .
Speaker 1And we're going to be talking about all of those things tonight . It's tonight for me because I'm in Australia . Am for you Great , amazing . Is there anything that you want to kind of kick us off with ? I was thinking that we'd probably start with talking about breathwork the breathwork that's a big part of what you do and then kind of move into your book . But is there anything you'd like to introduce to us before we sort of kick off ?
Speaker 2kick off . Well , I think . I think a bold statement is probably uh , because this is where hopefully we'll end up during this time together , and and that statement is um , would you be willing to consider that a measure of your emotional intelligence is your ability to take a breath when you don't want to ? So that means a lot . That's a big question and a little bit irritating to someone who doesn't have time to take a breath , and it's a bit like meditation when you most need it is the time you're least likely to think of doing it . It so that's kind of an arrival place . I think that if I can come off this show and have created inspiration for somebody to deeply consider what that statement means , then it's a win . It's a win for everybody , and for me , breathwork really began at a very young age .
Speaker 2I'm half Italian , half English , and I was raised in England in a very strict and privileged environment . I was sent to boarding school when I was just seven years old and I wasn't happy at all . I didn't understand why life would be like that , and I didn't have a very close family either . Even though my mum was Italian , she was trying to be English in those days after the Second War . So it wasn't done to advertise that you were Italian and so I wasn't very popular at school and I got teased a lot . And then , after I'd been there for a year or so , a young boy came up to me and he put a paper bag in front of me and he asked me to take 20 breaths . And so I just complied , you know , and I did , and then I had the first deeply spiritual experience of my life then , and I think I understood that , notwithstanding how grim life was for a little seven-year-old boy that this was infinitesimally grander .
Speaker 2This was something of such magnificent proportion that my suffering became like a dot on a screen rather than what my life revolved around . So it gave me a sense of the opportunity to be aware of what I call now the other , what I don't know . How can I become aware of what I don't know ? I don't know , and the breath is full of mystery for me . I think when I talk to people about it , they end up feeling the same way . It's such a paradox that we we forget about it our entire lives and yet we depend on it more than anything else . So what would it look like to create more awareness of it , and how learn the ways that we can use it and put it to good purpose ?
Speaker 1Wow , I'm going to have to go back once we finish recording and listen to that sentence and contemplate it myself . I think oh yeah , okay , yeah . Yeah , yeah , okay . So what happened ? I'm curious like just to go right back to that time when you were seven years old and you got to breathe into the paper bag what actually happened for you then , and did your story really evolve from then , or was it something that you never went back to until much later ?
Speaker 2I would say that was a moment of enlightenment . And then , like most of those moments of enlightenment , the bar goes down and you crash back into normal life again and wonder what on earth it was . And so my life hasn't been , I wouldn't say , an enlightened life . Indeed , I've had to go through some very dark places in my life , but it gave me a point of reference that was next to me and I think in the darkest moments of my life I also was able to at least remember intellectually the disproportion of what I thought my problems were and actually what's really going on . Oh , wow , so it's been a friend my entire life , but I didn't .
Speaker 2You know , those were the days when you were at school and things became we used to call them crazies , I think we call it
Early Breathwork Experiences
Speaker 2trending now and we used to . Everybody started doing it . After I did it with this kid , everybody started doing it , and then we were exploring our breath , and how long could you hold it in , or how long could you hold it out , and what would happen if you breathe slowly , or what would happen if you breathe quickly ? And and so those were the , the young childhood days . And then , um , I met the breath again when I was . I was a very young parent . I was a parent by the time I was 18 and um my partner , the mother of my first child , and I did breath practices during the entire pregnancy , so I was actually her breath coach .
Speaker 2I had no idea that's you know kind of where I would end up after a life of doing other things , but that was a beautiful .
Speaker 2It was a beautiful experience the whole thing that we would breathe together .
Speaker 2Experience the whole thing that we would breathe together and that we would create enough of a bond with our breath practice that it would be maintained during the actual delivery of Damien , my first son , and that taught me something about breath and relationship and how it brings us closer . If we consciously breathe together , something happens . And those defenses that we've had to put up to protect ourselves , when we're in what I call the breath state , we realize we don't actually need them so much . We begin to look between the bars of the cage that we've created to keep us safe and you know , we did it to protect ourselves but it ends up caging us , and so we can begin to open those bars a bit when we're in the breath state and kind of go oh well , maybe I can forgive , you know , maybe I don't need to hide behind my self-righteousness or the reasons , the stories I tell myself that I shouldn't , and so I think it helps us become more compassionate and meaningful people , and that's one of the reasons I love it .
Speaker 1This is something that must have evolved for you , or had you mentioned that ? It wasn't too much later in your life that you came back to it and realized that this was something that was was a powerful tool that you could use for your own transformation , but also to help in the transformation of others , to empower others . How did that start to come about ? Was it kind of like the the experience with your wife ? You said you were her coach yeah , I think it .
Speaker 2You know it was the addition and the accumulation of , of life experience . Really , there was a moment and , and the and the , the transformation into making this my purpose . My purpose was around a life-threatening illness and when I was really reduced to just a few days left and the breath that was all I had . I was in severe pain and I couldn't move . So for a period of probably seven or eight weeks , all I could do was breathe . Seven or eight weeks , all I could do was breathe . But I had to learn how to breathe without really expanding my lungs or moving my body because it was painful . So , you know , no coughing , laughing , talking , just being still and breathing as little , just sipping as little as I possibly could to stay alive . And that taught me the rest of what I needed to know .
Speaker 2I think you know it taught me about the value of surrender , and that surrender isn't weakness . Because I battled my way through . You know , I was like I'm going to find a way through this , I'm going to prevail , I'm going to come back , I'm going to , and I actually already started teaching breathwork by then . But , um , but I think I was in my ego and thinking of success and what that would mean and all of those things . And this was , um , this was perhaps a divine way to help me understand that there was another way , there was another way forwards , but but I I I think also what happened in that moment is the realization that all of the things that I've done in my life , some of which seemed totally irrelevant to any sort of forward progress through this human journey , some of them like skittish and different and opposite and irrelevant , were all absolutely essential .
Speaker 2It was as if someone had woven a needle and thread through each of those life experiences and then all of a sudden it got pulled tight and there was like it was entirely sequential and had to be that way , and that included going through really varying degrees , but extreme degrees of self-hatred too , of looking at my shadow and the darkness in me as a human being and having to learn to love it , and I think that was perhaps the most excruciating period of my life .
Speaker 2But if I hadn't been diligent , if I'd sort of taken a pill or found a way not to look at it , I think I wouldn't have been able to be with people in some of the deep stages of growth that they're in . It would be too scary , and so when I teach , I have an academy that teaches . I think we have close to 2000 facilitators in something like 70 countries around the world , and that's one of the things I teach is I require them to look at their darkness , and the purpose is to be able to be alongside someone else who needs to go through their own , so they don't run away from it , so we can be present in all to all parts of the human condition wow , yeah , that's a .
Speaker 1It's an interesting journey . The the shadow work , isn't it ? Because it's really about embracing and accepting that part of yourself , not trying to get rid of it yeah , it really is yeah it is and and uh , that's .
Speaker 2that's that moment that we all dread most , right , and then the minute we turn around and we look at what's chasing us , it's like the shift from this and feeling of creeping dread or you know this , this , this when's the when's the hit going to come ? Vanishes so quickly and then you know we can actually collaborate and understand all the power that's in that place , the raw power that we can now reinterpret and get a saddle and a bridle on it and be able to kind of fly with it . It's like a superpower actually , but it's where we want to look the least .
Speaker 1Yes , a superpower actually , but uh , it's where we want to look the least . So , yes , um , so let's , would you be able to sort of explain a little bit about how you use that , um , the breath and your breath work with that kind of , um , facing the shadow or releasing trauma ? Um , what sort of processes do you go through ? Because obviously that's a psychological and emotional , but also there's physical stuff going on . So how does that all kind of interconnect ?
Speaker 2Thank you , great question . And there's spiritual stuff going on . It doesn't need to be woo-woo stuff going on , I don't , you know , it doesn't need to be woo-woo , one doesn't need to be into the woo-woo to understand that the word inspired comes from the importation of spirit . You know , it's in our vernacular and uh , and the breath . In the three perhaps largest religious documents that have been written , the breath is referred to over 50 times as a supernatural force . So it's , there's uh , is .
Speaker 2I think it's psycho-emotional , it's physical , um , and it's also spiritual . And I think what happens when we ? I think the first thing , the first stage , is to give our awareness to our breath , and already we're reversing a habit of a lifetime . Unless you're a practitioner , of course , um , and and I think it would be fair to say that most of us who are practitioners do this is because we need to remember it , we understand that it's what we need . So to help other people do it means that we do it as a , as a , as a more natural thing , um , and we all teach what we need to learn . So you know , I um .
Speaker 2So , physiologically , if you're just aware of your breath , I don't think there's a huge physiological difference other than taking charge of your sympathetic
Breath and Nervous System Regulation
Speaker 2nervous system . And and your sympathetic nervous system , I like to think of it as the the part of nervous system that's reactive , that has sympathy with what's going on in the outer world . So if there is chaos in the outer world , if you're sympathetic with that , that will resonate with the chaos inside you . The out of sympathetic nervous system , the parasympathetic nervous system , is the one that , when we become aware of our breath , we can actually regulate our nervous system and begin to create an atmosphere of what's called rest and digest rather than freeze , fight or flee . So we're actually opposing that sympathetic sympathy that we , the susceptibility that we have to outside events , and recreating a center point by our choice of calm , and that is that can be physiologically measured with pulse rates and heart rate variability and all other kinds of ways . And so , of course , psychologically , what does that mean ? I think if we are susceptible to the outer world , there's so much data and information and hostility that it can fill up our bandwidth millions of times . So how can we possibly manage if we're going to be that porous to outer influence ?
Speaker 2We have a reticular activation system , which is this little thing in the back of our head , which helps us filter , but still , when you think of the Buddhists , who say that we have 60,000 thoughts a day , this is a very active mechanism and it fools us into thinking that it's the only thing that counts . It is the most knowing part of who we are . But actually , when we give our choice to our breath , we begin to become more aware of body sensations and things that are happening . As we begin to calm down and we begin to create the calm in the center of the storm , we realize how empowered we become . And this is where the psychological becomes important , because we're actually using choice .
Speaker 2I'm going to choose to give my attention to my breath , and that's at the opposite end of the extreme from trauma , where we have no choice , where we are really in the total sympathetic nervous system and we are going to fight , freeze or fly . So the more choices that we can make , the more we can learn to make choices when we're under pressure , the more agency we can create . So the more creativity that we can create . I'm going to create the space to take a breath when I don't want to , and that's why I said that's such a bold statement , because it just seems like almost irrelevant if you're in a hurry and you don't have time for it , but the truth is you're going to do it anyway . You're going to breathe anyway , so you can breathe just as fast as you were . You can breathe exactly however you want , but if you give your attention to it , there's something almost magical that happens . The combination of your attention to your breath opens up a doorway to a much wider perspective , and this is now where it also kind of touches the philosophical in a way , because if a green elephant was walking past your window right now and you're not looking at it , you wouldn't believe that it happened . In fact , it didn't happen . As far as your perspective is concerned , it never happened .
Speaker 2Conversely , if you notice something , then it can happen . If you notice something , then it can happen . So there's something about the power of noticing , or the lack of it , that affects our reality , and they've proven this in quantum physics now too . So then what if , instead of being drawn to the outer world , which is confusing and discombobulating and threatening , and sometimes exciting and wonderful too , what if I actually polish the lens of my noticing ? So it's like cleaning the window of your living room instead of letting it get all hazy so you can see things more clearly and the polishing of our noticing starts with creating the space and the stillness to notice things differently .
Speaker 2And I think an analogy might be . They say that if you go into a pitch black room , it takes 36 seconds for your eyesight to return and you can begin to distinguish form . But part of our lives , we don't want to be still that long . We're not used to being still that long . In fact , it's frightening , find relief for that moment . But it's not actually addressing the deeper state of being that we carry as human beings . So we end up being human doers instead of human beings and we forget . We forget that actually I am breathing . Actually I do have the right to choose this breath and how I breathe it , and that choice is an opportunity for a whole fresh string of choices that I could make . So what could I change if I changed my choices ? You know , it's all . It's a journey to immediate empowerment , if we can do that .
Speaker 1Wow , so many things . So in the process of um , I've okay . So I've been , I've attended one of your online free events the the sunday breath work events and I've done a couple of pre-recorded sessions and I had had a little bit of exposure to a breath work experience before , so I kind of had an expectation of what might happen in my body . But for someone who hasn't had that experience , how would you coach them through or describe to them what's going to happen in that experience ?
Speaker 2yeah , thank you . Okay . So if you now you're talking about the conscious , connected breath , which is one of the most powerful breaths you can breathe and that really changes your perception . And the reason it does is because it's you're giving your consciousness to it , like I was speaking of earlier , but you're also connecting each breath , so you're not , you're never pausing or hesitating between the top of your and then your exhale and um .
Speaker 2What happens when we do this physiologically is we begin to manipulate the oxygen levels in our blood and so blood increases and the carbon dioxide level in our blood decreases and as a result , obviously we're getting more oxygenation , but that oxygen doesn't go to the frontal lobe . It stays in the bloodstream because it can't go to the frontal lobe . It stays in the bloodstream because it can't go to the frontal lobe until the oxygen and carbon dioxide begin to return back to their normal levels again . So the frontal lobe is how we think , and if we give it less oxygen , it requires something like between 22 and 25% of our oxygen to function . So if we give it less oxygen , it malfunctions purposely . In this case , we're manipulating it , so we're not giving it all the oxygen it needs to stay in its monkey mind , you know , in its fast processing mind , we're beginning to slow it down and as we slow it down it's the same as I said before about the conscious breath we're creating space between the thought processes that we have and it's in that space that we begin to notice differently . So one of the things I would always say to someone who's going to do a session of conscious , connected breath is notice differently , you know , notice what is different , and you can overcome this wonderful benefit , this huge gift , with the power of your mind .
Speaker 2So if you're a control freak and you're going one , two , three , four , one , two , three , four and you know it's not here , nothing's happening . Or you know when am I going to see God , or you know when am I going , when's my bank account going to be full up just because I'm breathing . Or you know when's my bank account going to be full up just because I'm breathing . Or you know all of the ridiculous things we tell ourselves , you can stop it working , you can stop it having that effect .
Speaker 2But on the other hand , if you open to it and you don't have expectation and you maybe think of the times as a child when your state of wonder and curiosity was so unconditional and eager to understand something you didn't know , then it's likely that something you don't know will come into your awareness , and so it's like we think we're living the game of life . Now . It might be a nice game or a nasty game , wherever we are , but this is like finding a whole new matrix of life that we can use to re-inform ourselves and to such a helpful tool for transformation . I've seen people who've been married for 25 years and hardly talk to each other do a breath , work and come out of it and declare their love for each other . I've seen some you know some extraordinary transformations happen in just half an hour or 45 minutes . Again , it's a question of can we open that window , clean that window , or open that window and polish our ability to notice , to see things in a different way .
Speaker 1Would you recommend or advise someone to set an intention for that process ? I know that you recommend having a journal for post process . Um , is it ? Is there an intention needed , or is it that openness of like , let's just see what happens ?
Speaker 2um , I think that you know you can have an intention , but I I think you also need to let go of it . You know , I know a lot of people go into their breath work with an intention and then come out with a completely different message . Um , they say in the breath work world and they have ever since the in the west , ever since the 60s that
The Hero's Journey Framework
Speaker 2you're ready for whatever is revealed to you in a breath work . So there's something quite apparently to the normal thinking mind , something quite random , but you can go in there with intention and you may nail it . You may get exactly the response that you need that gives you clarity or fulfills your intention , but you may not . And so if having an intention leads you to expect something , then it won't work , because expectation is like putting two North Poles of a magnet together and they just push apart . So it doesn't help us .
Speaker 2And I've heard described in the last few months by several people that expectation is what actually creates unhappiness when we don't meet our expectations . That's the hidden formula that we use to stay unhappy in our lives . So there's something about that that we get taught in spades in this moment , because if I expect it to do something . It just won't come . Even if I expect the clarity , maybe the clarity won't come . There's and I used the word attention before and I think that's it's a key word , because in latin it it comes from the word attended it , and it actually means to wait , um , so attended it means to wait .
Speaker 2So actually , what we're doing when we go into the breath state with a conscious , connected breath is we're kind of setting up the screen and the projector and we're sitting in front of it and I'm using a visual analogy , but it could be the same you turn on the stereo and you're waiting for the song to come on or the film to come on the screen , and you're kind of like you don't want to miss a thing . So you're really looking , almost forcefully , waiting for that first frame to come into view . And that's what you're doing is you're waiting . You're not imagining , you're not . You're fiercefully , forcefully waiting , actively waiting , and it's not a passive thing . It takes focus and it takes concentration , and these are all things that we've kind of forsaken as children because we had to live the story that other people wanted us to live . So we learned to live the story that other people wanted us to live . So we learned to do that . So this is like kind of reversing that and turning it the other way around thank you .
Speaker 1You've shared so much already and we haven't even started talking about your book , but clearly I would assume correct me if I'm wrong that the reason that you've written this book is because you have had so many profound experiences and you want to get this message out into the world for more people about that process of healing , um , our perceptions , our stories and and all of the things creating inner calm amidst the outer chaos , which you've already mentioned yeah , yeah , thank you .
Speaker 2I , I , um . Yeah , the book is born from part of the curriculum that I teach my students , so it's not it is from my own experience , of course , but it's also from having worked with all of these people and understanding all the different natures of our human story . I feel a bit like Joseph Campbell , who wrote the Hero with a Thousand Faces and conceived the concept of a hero's journey , because I've been blessed without having to travel to different cultures to examine their , their , their mythology and their and their history . I've had people come to me to study , so I've had the chance of harvesting enormous amounts of um , of we could call it data , and I'm not the kind of person who records it and keeps track , but I do . I do have a lot of um , human experience of the human condition and um . So I think what I said earlier I make my students go through a very profound inner journey , and I had then people coming to study with me who said , actually , I don't want to be a breath worker , I want to do the inner journey . That's the bit that interests me most , and many of these people are doctors and psychologists and healers of some kind or another already , and so I thought maybe I should break it out .
Speaker 2So it took about two years to break it out of the curriculum of our , of what we teach our facilitators , which is a nine-month process and um . And then I thought , well , maybe I should write a book about it so people could get , so it can reach a wider audience , and and so the motivation and it's a soft intro , really it's a nice , I think , an easy intro . Easy intro into how we can learn to look at ourselves and feel better , have more agency . And that is really important to me is that my life is devoted to helping people understand that we do have enormous creative power , and it's not even anywhere else , it's right inside us . You know , I want to say it's this far away , it's not even this far away , it's inside us , and and so that process of um , awakening to it , is really about undoing rather than doing so .
Speaker 2There's something wonderful about the release of the burdens we've had to carry and and then understanding , in the absence of that , how wide our shoulders have become . So it is through our suffering that we become greater beings , but we never really harvest that as a truth . We just keep suffering and carrying more and more until we get beaten into the grave and or . A lot of people do and and and . So this is a way to actually re-describe that to really pick up the pen , become the author of your own life , rather than being battered and bruised by outside circumstances .
Speaker 2And really , the goal of the book is not just to help the reader , it's to help the reader become an inspiration to other people . So I'm always kind of thinking one more generation , especially at my age , I'm learning to think of the generations , the ones that are to come , and so it's not just about empowering people , it's about empowering people to empower people . And what is the message ? How do you craft a message that helps inspire people that , no matter how tough their life might look , that actually they have a teacher in them , they have a leadership in them that's waiting to be revealed and that can really help other people that have suffered the same challenges ?
Speaker 1amazing . I um , read your book through once , um and , as you recommended you it , it says in the book , read it once and then go back . So I'm on my second time and um , second time through um and taking more time with . But I had this light bulb moment because you talk about the hero's journey and I'm in my midlife and really , this podcast I've realized over the period of time that I've been hosting it is that it's part of my midlife journey of self-discovery .
Speaker 1But we have this , you know , idea of the midlife crisis and what that can mean for us , but also the midlife awakening that comes from that experience , or those experiences , because I don't think it's necessarily one thing that happens in in retrospect of what's been going on . For me it's definitely not one thing . But then just these patterns , this interconnectedness of that journey , the hero's journey , the midlife crisis , the Chiron return , which is an astrological event that happens when you turn 50 , which is what I , what I've also been in the midst of um and just how these things really interconnect as part of a universal story . And yeah , I was just like , oh , yeah , I'm blown again . Yeah , can you talk to us a little bit about the Hero's Journey ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it's based on Joseph Campbell's research as an anthropologist and it's a very , very dense and very good book . It's a book you'll keep on your shelf forever . There's a companion book that I have read that I actually enjoyed even more as a writer , which is called the Writer's Journey , which contextualizes the hero's journey in a slightly more modern format and things like Star Wars and some famous iconic films and stories , as really this journey is archetypical of the human journey and it's happening to us all the time . We could be living dozens of these in the same moment , and a hero's journey can last a moment or it could last an entire lifetime . So they're all true , but there are some classic thresholds that we cross as we go through this journey , which begin with an urge to do something different , to change something . That could be because we feel pushed into it or disgusted with or bored with the life we've lived , or it could be because something beckons , something calls us forward tendency to procrastinate or to be lazy or the resistance becomes our enemy and , you know , keeps us still , and so we don't want to grow . Our natural tendency as humans to want to have a certain degree of uncertainty can be cramped and diminished . So that call requires a certain propulsion . Certain , we need to be inspired , we need to be either so over the past or so attracted by something new that it actually makes us move out of stillness , makes us take a step forwards . And that's really the first step of the journey .
Speaker 2And then a whole series of wonderful and also potentially terrifying things happen . When you look in the mythological world they're terrifying . In real life they don't really have to be quite so terrifying . But you know like , after this surge of overcoming your resistance and going out into this unknown , moving towards an unknown world , you feel like a bit of a hero , you know . You feel like , wow , I'm going to make a change and I'm looking back at all of those other people that I'm leaving behind and I'm better than them . And the ego , you know , is likely to surge and swell .
Speaker 2And then , of course , we begin to meet the demons , and those demons in a film will be the counter forces of the hero as the hero goes through the film In our own life . They're usually parts of our inner life the shame , the doubt , the shadow space , the things we've done wrong , the things that surge up and remind us that you're no good . Just get back to where you were , go back in your shell . You don't deserve to be moving forwards in your life . So we get to meet those limiting beliefs that have really kept us small our entire lives , and that rises to a crescendo . And we're kind of halfway through the journey where it's like a do or die moment where and I like the story of Hydra when the hero will cut off one head of Hydra , two heads will grow back . So it's that feeling of like , no matter what I do , no matter what I do , I just can't move forwards . I'm not going to be able to beat this problem . And that's a very important moment because some people will crumble and then fall back into their old habits and other people will prevail . And these are different stories , different moments , different opportunities . So some we win , some we don't .
Speaker 2If we do win , we go into a moment of glory and perhaps a resurgence of ego , and we kind of have our glow moment , which can become a gloat moment if we're not careful . And then we become indolent and lazy again and we think we've achieved life , we think we've mastered life
Navigating Life's Doldrums
Speaker 2, but there's actually a return journey . The treasure on Treasure Island that we found , that treasure in our own being has no value . Imagine you find your treasure on Treasure Island . Unless you can take it to Bond Street or to Beverly Hills and spend it , it has no value . So in order to give that treasure that we found in our own being value , we need to bring it home . Actually , we need to bring it back to the place we left in the first place .
Speaker 2So that journey is trepidatious also . That involves . So that journey is trepidatious also . That involves the same demons , but in a softer , more introspective way . We learn about the power of forgiveness and compassion and atonement and about our inevitable but eventual diminishment of physical form . And how are we going to encounter our passage , that final rite of passage out of this life into the grand beyond ? It's an equally trepidatious journey , but in a more introspective way . It's not sort of forwards and battling . It's always another mountain behind it . And the mountain behind mastery is actually to be willing to encounter mystery . And what does that mean ? What does that mean ? To let go of all the things I know and move into what's next .
Speaker 2And I think once we know the nature of this journey and we see it in films , books , stories , short stories , even commercials you can see a hero's journey being played out . We understand it gives me great comfort because it's a reminder that it's not as personal as I thought it was , this life journey I thought it was . You know , when things are going wrong , it feels like God and all his angels and all the powers that be and all the universal forces and Allah and whoever it is they've all conspired together to really screw me up , right ? But actually everybody is feeling that at some point about something , so it becomes utterly impersonal and that in a way , means I've got company , no matter how grim and lonely I feel . It reminds me other people are going through that too and maybe even more importantly , that something else is waiting to happen . And we forget that when we're overwhelmed it's just like the end . We're in this moment of like crushing defeat , but actually something else is waiting to happen .
Speaker 2And this is where , when I combine my awareness of the hero's journey and actually our life story of birth to death , and when we mix them together , there comes this completely new template that's available to us to understand ourselves .
Speaker 2And again it comes back to that statement I started with that if something else is waiting to happen and if I can create the space to notice what it is , then I really can be the hero of my own journey . So it comes back to that one breath and our ability to notice what it is that's going to happen , because if we stay in the flurry of the outer chaos , we're not going to create the space to notice what it is that wants to happen , and it is towards our hero ship . It's our journey to shero or hero ship , whichever , whatever you want to call it . So , um , so I found it to be an enormous comfort in my life and I and I employ it in the book as , at least partially , it informs the book because it's just so darn helpful . You know , it's just helpful to a troubled soul or to someone who who is really deep in their questioning . It's just such a valuable tool to be aware of .
Speaker 1Yes , definitely I love the part in your book is part of this whole process where you and the journey where you talk about the doldrums . Can you , can you share that with us , because I love that part and I think that that's a really essential thing for us to remember as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , thank you . Yeah , that's the moment when we first of all for people who don't know what the doldrums are , that's it's a point when you're sailing and you cross the equator that there is no wind , and this can be the case for several weeks that you're just kind of like bobbing , uh on on . Well , not even bobbing , because the ski , the sea is perfectly flat , but you're , you're just still , and it can be baking hot and you're looking at yourself in all kinds of ways that you wouldn't have before . And it can be baking hot and you're looking at yourself in all kinds of ways that you wouldn't have before . And it can be very disconcerting to to be with oneself right , so you get to look at what is it that gives you impetus in life ? Where's the wind that fills my sails in life ? Can I blow hard enough to do it myself ? Is it a question of my will ? What is my will actually going to change ? What is my relationship between my will and my ability to simply surrender ? And again , the breath is the perfect metaphor , because an inhale takes willfulness and an exhale takes surrender . So where am I in this journey ?
Speaker 2And I think also it speaks of that time in our human quest , if you start a project , which is the perfect description of a hero's journey . You start a new project and you get that first spurt of energy and then you get to a point where , yeah , well , something's happening . And then it looks like , well , actually nothing's happening . God , what happened ? All that energy that I had it's brought me to here and now I'm I actually feel defeated . I don't , I don't feel I've got momentum , I don't feel that I've got traction anymore . It feels like , no matter what I do , I'm not getting anywhere , and that I'm not getting anywhere . And that is , I think , a very powerful opportunity , and it's one that we hate because it's so darn uncomfortable . But actually , the opportunity you're being offered this gift of stillness and this gift of using that stillness and that space in a different way . So it's like you're not even having to remember to take that breath in this moment . This is like this is all that it is is spaciousness , and I think it also speaks to the depression that sometimes we experience as human beings too , because we're very susceptible to depression if nothing is moving , if we don't feel something is moving , and we also lose our agency , we lose our sense of choice Like this . I've run out of choices . That's not going to change anything . I'm here and I've tried everything and nothing is actually working . And I've tried everything and nothing is actually working .
Speaker 2There's a great haiku that a friend of mine wrote , which was when I finally stopped squirming , god kissed my heart , and I think it's a good explanation for whatever the God of your understanding might be I'm not trying to pitch a particular one of any kind , but let's call it a higher awareness that if we fill the space with our squirming , there's no room for anything else to be noticed . There's no room , therefore , for anything else to happen . So , in my illness , when I was going , why me ? What's the purpose ? What can I learn ? How can I prevail ? How can I survive this ? All of these questions that are all of good intention , some of them grumbly hateful instead of humbly grateful . But in that writhing , that psychic , psycho-spiritual writhing that I was in and the juxtaposition of not being able to move anything physically , I actually came to the I had to come to the point of utter surrender , and that was really the grand awakening for me was to understand the power of surrender as a conscious act , not as the expiry of will , but as a conscious act , not as an exhaustion act , not as an exhaustion , but as a conscious act and then something else can come in , something that's been waiting to happen can become apparent , that greater power can come in .
Speaker 2And as we speak of this , doldrums as a part of that hero's journey .
Speaker 2I think this happens even in a breathwork session .
Speaker 2A breathwork session is a perfect example of this hero's journey .
Speaker 2I think this happens even in a breathwork session . A breathwork session is a perfect example of this hero's journey , where you leave your known world and you open your unconditionality to something different coming into view and then you think you found it and you rise up and you feel , yeah , I've seen , now I understand why this , and so on . And then you come out of it and the reality is there and you have to get back into your old shoes and you've got to get back to work . And how do you actually bring the gift that you experience in a breath work back to the normal , not very unnatural , but the normal world that we live in ? And so that's also why I say with people who do use the conscious , connected breath that it's actually not what happens to you during the session . It's how do you integrate it afterwards ? How can you , between your breath , work sessions , how can you really employ this wisdom , that this universal wisdom that you can tap into ? How can you actually make it work for you in real life ?
Speaker 1wow . One thought popped into my mind when you were talking about the doldrums and people being susceptible to depression . Something I've heard or read was that depression equals deep rest is required , which kind of really goes with . That idea of that sort of space and silence and inactivity is actually something that's a required part of the process .
Speaker 2Yeah , exactly , exactly , exactly , I think . That's so true . I think the message is to have agency even in those moments when we feel we have none again , choosing that one breath is a choice and we can acknowledge ourselves for that . And where it takes us to is becoming the detective of this experience rather than the victim of this experience . So if I put on my detective's trilby and , um my , take out my little notebook , what actually is going on in this space ? What actually , what actually is happening ? What is there that I'm not noticing in this darkness , in this hopelessness ? What are the conversations I need to have with myself in this space ? And to re , if we can rekindle a tiny spark of curiosity back again .
Speaker 2And sometimes the body's really helpful with things like this . You know , I I was taught by Gay Hendricks , who I think is one of the world's greatest teachers of our day Hendrix , who I think is one of the world's greatest teachers of our day , from the Hendrix Institute , that when you're feeling kind of lackadaisical and you're not feeling motivated to make a sound of wonder , so take a big sigh and go , hmm , and to do that a few times , and what happens is your body is then reminding you the vibration that you're making is reminding you of that state of curiosity that you would have had when you did make that sound or when you imagined making that sound . So we don't stay in this tiny little thing up here that we give all the credit to , and we
Practical Breath Techniques for Daily Life
Speaker 2begin to look to our bodies as as our antenna and as a way of also noticing and perceiving amazing um .
Speaker 1We're coming to the end of our conversation um , and I would I'm curious to know if you have any recommendations for people . We've talked a lot about the connected breath and that's the experience I've had um going through your um weekend class . Are there other breath practices that you recommend people do um and that they can do sort of in their busy lives ?
Speaker 2yeah , yeah , um , I'm gonna try if I see if I can give you a quick , quick um download in just a couple of minutes . The . The first thing is to notice your breath . That's number one . That's actually half the journey . You've made half the journey .
Speaker 2If you can remember to notice your breath , then , if you choose , then notice how you breathe in any in all the different conditions you experience during the day . So how are you breathing in the morning or at night , or when you're lazy and tired , or when you're lazy and tired , or when you're motivated and excited , or you're nervous , you're upset , you're anxious , or when you're calm , when you're making love all kinds of different life experiences that we have . Notice how you're breathing and what you're starting to do when you do that is to create a catalog of breath styles and then you can refine those breath styles to recreate those conditions whenever you need to . So if you're like I was jet lagged in San Diego 10 days ago and I had to do a talk in front of several hundred people and I was just like falling asleep , so I did a quick breath to activate myself for about a minute and a half . If you're feeling stressed or anxious , you want to breathe a slow breath with an extended exhale in order to calm your nervous system . Give it two minutes , because it takes a couple of minutes , but it will happen . So these are all stages towards the conscious connected breath , which I think are in many ways more practical and more valuable . Right now , we use the conscious connected breath on Sundays to show people how impactful it is and how quickly we can change our perspective . And it's strong medicine and it's super powerful .
Speaker 2But that doesn't mean that the other stages to that breath practice are not significant . They're , in ways more significant . So , being aware that you are breathing , creating a breath practice that works for you , and a good standard . One is the coherence breath , which is designed by yeah , the heart math institute , and that's five seconds in five seconds out through the nose . That will regulate your nervous system , that will increase your heart rate variability and that's a good go-to practice if you do it three times a day . The other thing that I would say is , if you really want to work with anxiety or depression , the best time to practice a breath that will affect that is when you're not anxious or stressed . If you try it when you're anxious or stressed , you won't approach it with the confidence that you will once it's become a practice . So try these breath practices when you don't actually need them so you can have them in place when you do need them , and then they'll become more natural for you to go to Great .
Speaker 1Brilliant , great advice . Thank you , just as we close , is there anything else you would like to share with us about your book ? I think you've given us a pretty good indicator of what it's all about , but is there anything that you'd like to close with ?
Speaker 2Um no , I don't think so . I hope you enjoy it . You have , obviously I'm grateful .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm grateful you're reading it again . I , um , it's , um , I think it's a beautiful message and it's useful for everybody , no matter where you are in your life . And , um , and I , I , my prayer is that it's a value and it can help people feel more empowered . And if there was a call to action , it would be to come closer . Come and join us on Sundays , it's a free half-hour session . It's a great opportunity to meet hundreds of other people and also to discover the power of your own breath . And then , if there was a request , would be to ask what would your random act of kindness be today ? What could you do that someone might not be expecting ? And , um , if we can all do that a lot more , then we'll be a lot in a lot better shape love that .
Speaker 1That's beautiful . What a great way to end . Thank you so much for joining us . I really appreciate your time and , yeah , taking the time out of your day to come here and share your wisdom . Thank you .
Speaker 2God bless you . It's been a real honour and a pleasure . Thank you .
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