Life, Health & The Universe - A Podcast For The Midlife Rebel

Healing From Infidelity: Mr Jay on Betrayal, Grief & Growth

• Host - Nadine Shaw - Midlife Rebel; Natural Wellness Advocate, Astrologer, Gene Keys Guide,Human Design Enthusiast • Season 15 • Episode 10

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Why does betrayal feel like it shatters not just your present, but rewrites your entire past? In this powerful conversation, I sit down with Mr Jay—Certified Betrayal Trauma Practitioner and Intrapersonal Relationship Coach—to explore the hidden layers of betrayal, from infidelity to grief to the resurfacing of old wounds.

We unpack why some people turn to affairs as a way to “feel alive,” the isolating impact of secrecy on partners, and why betrayal triggers are more than memories—they’re full-body flashbacks that demand nervous system care.

This isn’t about quick fixes. Together, we explore the real tools for healing: EMDR, EFT tapping, trauma-informed yoga, and visualization. Mr Jay shares how to rebuild trust through transparency, set boundaries rooted in values, and create self-care rituals that become non-negotiables rather than luxuries.

Through the lens of kintsugi—the Japanese art of golden repair—we also discuss how couples who choose to mend can create relationships more honest, resilient, and compassionate than before. And if walking away is the path, the lesson remains the same: healing begins within.

If you or someone you love is navigating betrayal or deep relational pain, this episode offers a steady, hope-filled map forward.

You can find Mr Jay's full profile in the Guest Directory

https://lifehealththeuniverse.podcastpage.io/person/mr-jay

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Life, Health and the Universe. Bringing you stories to connect us, preventative and holistic health practices to empower us. And Esoteric Wisdom Life. We invite you to visit our website where you can access the podcast, watch on YouTube, and find all of our guests in the guest directory. Visit lifehealth the universe. Now let's get stuck into this week's episode. Today I'm joined by Mr. J, a certified betrayal trauma practitioner and intrapersonal relationship coach who helps people move from heartbreak to healing. Through his compassionate coaching, writing, and speaking, he guides individuals and couples from betrayal to breakthrough, reminding us that with dedication and openness, it's possible to create your happily ever after. That's a very short, abridged introduction, uh, Mr. J. And you know what? I want to keep calling you Dr. J, like Dr. Phil. I kind of like that. It feels like a little bit mysterious that you're just called Dr. J, Mr. J.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yes, yes, I love it. Well, you know what? I I'm a jack of all trades, maybe master of none. Um, no, actually, I'm gonna tell you what I'm a master of. Um, I am an expert at failure, honestly. And I believe that's a great thing because it's it's in your failure that you actually learn and grow. So um, I mean, there's a lot of products out there from Formula 409 to 44D or Formula 44, whatever it is. Um uh that uh or WD40, that's what it is. W D40, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um basically it's you know, I I I have a decent amount of education, I have a decent amount of certifications, I have a decent amount of schooling, but the best education I got is going through the school of hard knocks, and that's what I think uh I bring forth. So, anyways, enough of that. But um, yes, it's uh it's the it's the mosaic and the enigma uh that makes life interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Totally. And you know, it's it can be quite hard actually, because I have certainly witnessed in myself, we do have those perceived failures or difficulties to go into a little bit of avoidance of like stepping in out of your comfort zone for fear of that um failure or um you know disappointment. But in fact, they're the yeah, they're the biggest areas for growth, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, listen, nobody wants to get on a bike initially because you wobble and you shake and you fall and you scrape your knees. But after you do it for a while, you don't even think about it. You get on the bike, you pedal, sometimes you don't even have to hand hold on to the handlebars instead of this. And I think sometimes when you when you've failed so often, um, or life has failed you, you've really grown to grab onto a lot of skills and techniques that you can ultimately share with others too, which is what I do. Um, I've had, you know, quite the traumatic childhood. Um, and although that's sad in one way, um, it has given me a tremendous amount of tools and techniques to share with others. Um, and and a lot of self-love too. Because I always say it's very difficult to love yourself and hate the experiences that made you who you are. So even though I've been through a lot of crap, I I honestly don't regret them because I really love who I am today.

SPEAKER_00:

That's amazing. That's great. Would you like to can you share a little bit about that? Because that's obviously influenced the work that you do today. Can you kind of take us on a little bit of a journey about what your how your experiences have led you to what you're you're doing now?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, absolutely. Well, you know what's interesting is um I always say the the world of coaching, which is what I'm in, um, I I I I didn't pursue it, it pursued me. So basically, um I um uh I was very close with my dad. I was very close with my dad, and and he passed away abruptly, very abruptly. Um, I was on the phone with him one day, and a few days later, I was I was lowering him into the ground. And so a few days after that, I woke up in like my first panic attack. And when I woke up having my first panic attack, and I'm kind of I'm really rushing this story because basically when I went to to look into what in the world was this panic attack all about, and what was it trying to teach me and what was going on, I I discovered I had a lot of unhealed childhood trauma, developmental trauma. And it was in pursuing that that I wound up getting involved with a lot of these organizations and these communities, and and which led me into these this niche of betrayal, and then a niche within a niche, betrayal trauma. And I got fascinated with this, and I started really learning everything there is to know about it. And then come to find out, you know, this uh CEO of this company reached out to me and said, I I I've seen that you've been really helping a lot of people in my organization. Would you like to go through my program and become certified as an actual betrayal trauma practitioner? And uh, and uh, well, you know, we can work together and stuff. And um so again, I and then I went through that program and and the rest is history. So this isn't, you know, I didn't get up one day and say, hey, I think I want to become a betrayal trauma practitioner. No, life just unraveled, unfolded, and this this field found me.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And you've obviously like done a fair bit of um processing your own experiences as part of this journey.

SPEAKER_02:

Not only have I done a tremendous amount of my own introspection, reflection, therapy, whatever, I believe I'm still doing it. It's ongoing. Um, you know, listen, a lot of trauma is mixed in with grief. And when you lose someone substantial, when you lose someone very close to you, we don't ever get over that grief. We learn to manage it greatly. We learn to manage it to the best of our ability, and that's the same thing with trauma. Um, while I'll never say we could never heal from trauma, I'll never say that. I will never say we will never. But I don't know. But I do know we can manage it to the best of our ability and actually have it work for us, to be honest with you. I'm gonna give you a very quick example. Growing up in my childhood, I had to always be hyper-vigilant for for what was gonna go on around me. What was I going to be a victim of something? Was I going to be, you know, uh vic whatever. So I I'm I'm I'm just naturally hyper-vigilant now. Well, maybe that's not a good word, naturally, but I'm hyper-vigilant. But what's good is I have a family now. I have a family and I have small kids. And when we go out to eat, even subconsciously, by default, I'm making sure that I'm like, okay, if somebody happens to come into this restaurant and they happen to pull out a gun, where's the nearest exit? How can is can I tip this table over to make sure that a bullet can protect my family? Now I know to a lot of people listening, they're like, my God, what a way to live. I understand that. I get that. I get that. And it and I'm not saying it's an ideal way to live, but if I'm gonna have hypervigilance, then I'm gonna let it work for me. Yeah. So I use it to help protect me and uh protect my family.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Did that actually happen to you when you were a kid, that the those kind of experiences?

SPEAKER_02:

No, but once you are traumatized, um, hypervigilance often sets in. And that is something that, again, I don't want to say it's lifelong and never ending, but it potentially could be. And I I want to set the expectation out there that, you know, listen, we don't have to be a puppeteer to our trauma. Uh, we can learn to manage it. A lot of people certainly heal a good majority of it, but we could also, at the very least, uh, learn to let it um for us to use it to our uh uh advantage rather than being a puppeteer to our trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. That makes complete sense. Obviously, we want to talk about the betrayal trauma and how you work, but I'm really interested also that we said that you're an intrapersonal relationship coach. If people misheard that, I said intra-personal, not interpersonal. So I thought that was really interesting because you're a relationship coach, but this is intrapersonal work, so this is work on yourself, right? We don't always like taking responsibility in our relationships.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, it's interesting because uh sometimes when I'll talk to somebody and they're like, Mr. J, my last seven relationships ended up in this, and and um, and I'm dating this person now, and it's going down the same thing, and maybe my picker is off. And um, I'll say, Well, listen, let's let's do some reflection here, let's do some introspection, because the common denominator in the past eight relationships is you. So maybe we got some work to do on us. And listen, we all got work to do. We we are all uh Nadine. I say all the time, we're much more than human beings, we're human evolvements, we're evolving all the time. Now, hopefully, we're evolving to the good, but we evolve. You're not the same Nadine today as you were five years ago, and you're not gonna be the same Nadine today as you are five years from now. We're constantly evolving, so we have to constantly do some introspection, some reflex. And if we're in relationship with someone, we have to constantly build bridges to them because they're evolving too. So, you know, we're not married to the same. I'm this November, I'm going on 23 years of marriage. The person I'm with today, I that's not who I married. We're different people, but we build bridges to each other to constantly get to know one another and things like that. But yeah, an intrapersonal relationship coach is uh helping the person have the best relationship with themselves because the relationship you have with yourself sets the tone and standard for all other relationships around you. If you don't hold yourself accountable and responsible, it's very challenging to hold others responsible and accountable. If you don't have boundaries for yourself, how are you going to enforce boundaries with others? So the relationship we have with ourselves is absolutely critical for an ideal relationship around us.

SPEAKER_00:

What are some of the things that you um, when you talk about boundaries and that sort of thing and your relationship with yourself, what are some of the things that you encounter when you're working with people individually on their relationship stuff?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, listen, a lot of people simply don't have boundaries. Now, a lot of that comes down to a lot of people don't understand boundaries. And then, of course, most important is enforcing boundaries because you know listen, boundaries are like religion. We don't take on a religion to control other people's behavior, we take on boundaries to control our own behavior. So, for an example, for an example, let's just say you have a boundary of it's important to me that people are on time, right? Let's just say that's your boundary, okay? Um, people can do whatever they want, you're not gonna control people, people can do whatever they are. But if people want to be a part of your inner circle, then they need to respect that you're a timely person. And if not, then there's gonna be consequences. Those consequences could simply be a nice little chat. Hey, Mr. J, we talked that we're we had a conversation. We're gonna talk today at a certain point. You didn't show up, you didn't call me. That doesn't sit well with me. It could be a simple conversation, um, it could be anything from uh Mr. J. Uh we talked, and it's very important to me. It's a boundary of mine that people respect my time, and you didn't. I'm gonna let you reschedule with me one last time. It could be a warning, it could also be Mr. J. We we had a vocal, a verbal contract that I was gonna talk to you today. You didn't honor that. I have to enforce my boundary and say, good luck. I just can't have you on my show. So, so enforcing boundaries, whatever rules you want to come up with, fine, they're yours, but we need to enforce boundaries. One of the things that I have people do is first and foremost, how do you create boundaries? Well, one way to create boundaries or sit down and write down what are your values. I mean, if your values are honesty, write it down. If your value is, like I just said, time, write it down, whatever. Then you take those values and you invert those into boundaries. Okay. Anybody can do whatever they want, however they want, wherever they want, none of my business. But if somebody wants to be a part of my intimate inner circle, they have to value respect. They have to value, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, so that's what I work on with people. One of the many things I work on with people is is um, first of all, creating boundaries, having boundaries, knowing your boundaries, but most important, enforcing your boundaries. Because if you don't, then what happens is you start to have a lot of self-disrespect. And eventually that can lead into depression. So it's very vital we enforce boundaries.

SPEAKER_00:

So, how do you how does that happen? Like if you've got some boundaries but you don't enforce them, how do you how does that play out when we're in real in relationship?

SPEAKER_02:

So, what happens basically, very quickly, very short answer, is um we start to disrespect our voice, we start to rob our voice from us, we take away our voice, and when we don't honor our voice, then we dishonor ourselves. And over time, if we continue to dishonor ourselves, that leads to um to depression. So it's very well could lead to depression.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right. So it's sort of like um saying you're you're not worth like even though those things are important to you, your rely for your relationships, you're not worthy of people around you fulfilling those boundaries for you.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, and my needs, my needs and wants and desires and things that I deserve um are honored. And and people, and as and I'm telling you something, people that have undergone trauma, which includes sometimes betrayal, you're already questioning your worth. So you have to enforce boundaries, or else questioning your worth, plus on not allowing yourself to have a voice, this can lead you into a a cycle of um inner hostility, inner hatred, inner depression.

SPEAKER_00:

God, it's real. Um it's I don't I talk to a lot of people who are about self-improvement. So obviously, this is a big part of the importance of self-improvement, is because we're in interactions with people all the time. But that inner work is essential for um good relationships, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Um listen, Nadine. I tell all people all the time, sorry to interrupt you. No, no, no. When it comes to self-care, you're allowed to be selfish. Listen, I am married, I told you going on 23 years. I have two young kids. I'm very involved in my church, I'm very involved in my job, I'm very involved with my uh external family, my in-laws, my parents, my that I am stretched in every possible direction every second of the day. But when it comes time to feed my soul and fill my cup, I'm selfish. Because here's the deal you can't pour from an empty cup. Think about it, Nadine. Who did the Titanic save when it went down? No one. So you can be as strong as steel and as mighty as anything, but if life consumes you and you wind up floundering, who can you help? So uh once a month I I go roller skating. My kids don't come, I go on my own. I go roller skate. This is me. I I tell the DJ, put on some 80s. I get lost with the BGs. This is me time. If I go on my my my uh treadmill, if I my me time, I'm selfish because I can't pour from an empty cup, and I want to give people all of me and more of me, but in order to do that, I gotta be selfish with what feeds my soul.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Why do feed why do people find that difficult?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, listen. That's a good question, but it's loaded. And there's many, many reasons why. There's many reasons why sometimes people are just simply people pleasers and they can't say no. Well, if I tell somebody no, they're not gonna like me. And I can't have somebody not liking me, you know, whatever. I mean, there's people pleasers out there. Uh, there's also people that um in order to feel good, they need that outside validation. So, yes, I'm so I'm I yes, I'm very tired and I haven't slept in two days and I want to take a nap, but my mother just called me and asked me to give her a ride to the bank. Well, I I can't let her down. Um, that'll make it so so like you know, external validation plays a role. Um uh um uh people pleasing plays a role. Um, when we are not secure in who we are and our self-worth and our self-respect and our self-love, that plays a role. I mean, so there's many, many, many reasons um why why people find that a hard difficult, but uh it is rampant. And I tell people all the time no is a respectful, complete sentence. I love that. Uh I mean, really, you can say not at this time, or this doesn't fit in my schedule, or maybe next time, or whatever. And those are all great, but bottom line, sometimes you just have to say, I can't, no. And that is a complete sentence, and that's respectful. And you're only responsible for what you say, not what people hear. So people want to come up with all these stories of how you're not there for them, that's their circus, not yours.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, yeah. It takes some takes some uh conscious effort, doesn't it, to to like face some of these things. Yeah, yeah. So when you're working with people, are you generally working one-on-one when you do the intrapersonal work?

SPEAKER_02:

Or so um, okay, so when I do intrapersonal work, um, 80% of my clients would be one-on-one. Absolutely. However, uh, when I'm uh so my primary job as a betrayal trauma practitioner, I do work with couples. Probably 95% of my the the those I work with are couples, um, and I work with them to repair and rebuild after broken trust. So after infidelity, after an affair. Help couples repair and rebuild together. But I that also takes some intrapersonal work because we have to find out um why the person stepped out. We need to do some healing there, and then the effect that it had on the other person, not to mention there was some setup, which we can get into depending on time and your interest. But um, I always say um the person that was betrayed has absolute zero, zero responsibility in their partner's betraying, but they have a hundred percent responsibility in how they showed up in the relationship. So we all have work to do no matter what.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely. Um let me have a look at my questions. Yeah, I was I was just thinking, like when I was um preparing this conversation, um, how important relationships are in our lives, right? This is what life is all about. Um, but they are fraught with the biggest challenges, our relationships with other people. Probably, if you ask most people if they've had a bad experience, whether it's in a personal relationship or a relationship with a co-worker, relationships are the thing that have created the biggest challenges. Why is that? What's going on?

SPEAKER_02:

Very good question again, but hugely massive. You know, um, yeah, you know what's interesting is um I I was just I I was just putting a video together today. Um, and I don't know if this is gonna answer your question, but I was just putting a uh a video together today because even in the simplest form, even if it's not like your intimate relationship, even with with friends, with siblings, with parents, with bosses, with co-people talk with words, but we listen in story. So let me give you a very quick example, and I'm just pulling this out of my head, so maybe it's not a good example, okay? Let's just say you love to garden, Nadine, right? You love to garden. And I say, Hey, Nadine, tomorrow I'm gonna come over and I'm gonna help you garden. So all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, what a relief. I I'm gonna have some help gardening. So I get up tomorrow and I'm like, okay, so um let me switch over some clients, move my clients because I want to give time to Nadine. Um, I'm gonna move this client to tomorrow, this client next week. I'm gonna ask this client if she'll do it later. That okay, I moved all my clients. Now I'm gonna make some iced tea and bring it to Nadine. So um then I go and I buy a hat because I'm gonna be out in the sun. So I wear a hat and I come and I bring a chair and I say, Nadine, um, I'm gonna sit here in my chair and just read a book with my iced tea. Um, if you need a shovel, let me know. If you need a hole, let me know. If you need a travel, let me know. If you need me to carry a bag, let me know. I am here to help you. And so you're digging in your garden and you're sweating, and you're like, Mr. J said he was gonna help me. Oh my god. He lied. Mr. J lied, and then you turn and say, Mr. J, you lied. You lied. And now I hear I lied, and I'm like, I got up and I I moved all my appointments. I went out and bought a hat, I made us iced tea, I'm at your beck and call. Whatever you want, let me know. I'm here, I'm gonna hand it to you. I'm at your service. I lied. See, we we talk in statements, but we listen in stories. Even just on that fundamental, we're gonna let people know. And that's the basic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I was thinking about betrayal trauma, and now you've kind of referenced like couples who are in intimate relationship and they've had some infidelity, but I was wondering whether betrayal trauma, the thing that popped up for me, and and I know that you uh one of the things that I listened to of yours, um we talk about these repetitive loops that we're on, and you know, you kind of have the same experience over and over again. Can betrayal trauma be not just about infidelity, but just like a certain pattern that you have in a relationship? And it's like, oh my god, this person's, you know, I've done everything, I've you know, I've spent all my money, I'm in debt again. Um or whatever the story might be. Or does it have or is the betrayal trauma specifically about infidelities?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, okay, so yes and no. So, first of all, let me just say this betrayal trauma in general doesn't just have to be a spousal betrayal. Uh-huh. We can have betrayal trauma um uh from a boss.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh so betrayal trauma is this. It it really is in the dynamic of you have a reliance upon someone. Uh so I couldn't give you betrayal trauma right now because you don't rely on me for anything. Well, maybe if I stood you up on your show. No, I'm just kidding. No, um, I couldn't give you betrayal trauma because you don't rely on me for anything. But um, if you're if you got if you worked for a company for 20 years and you were fired, you could have betrayal trauma. You could be like, oh my gosh, I gave this company my heart and soul. I sacrificed family time. I've come to work when I've been sick and I and now I'm fired. That could give you betrayal trauma. You can have betrayal trauma from somebody close to you unaliving themselves or taking their own lives, committing suicide. Like, for instance, you know, I was so close with my mother and I loved my mother, and she was my best friend. And then one day I went into the house and I there she was. She took her life, she betrayed me, she took my own friend away. You can get betrayal trauma from that. You can get betrayal trauma from your own self. Um, uh, you know, Mr. J, I I was healthy and I meditated and I did yoga and I and I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I feel like my body betrayed me. I feel like my creator betrayed me. So there's many different ways where we can um have betrayal trauma. But but let me just say this. Um trauma, betrayal, betrayal trauma, it can it can affect us, and and and it can still be betrayal trauma, but where where it takes now deep work is when it changes us. So a lot of these things affect us, but we move on. When it changes us, that's when certain things stick and stay with us.

SPEAKER_00:

So how would it show up um when it changes us? Is it the way that we then respond in future relationships? Or is it fear? Is it like the fear of doing something again in case the same thing happens?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um, okay, so trauma, more specifically, betrayal trauma, shows up in hypervigilance.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02:

It shows up in night sweats, night tremors, nightmares. It shows up in triggers. Um, and what a trigger is, it's remembering the past, but it's not just remembering the past, your nervous system is reliving the past. And these can take you to your knees. And any, and I I don't know if you can relate or anybody listening can, but somebody that has trauma triggers, they can literally take you to your knees. You could be washing dishes, taking a shower, having sex, and you get a trigger and you can fall down to your knees in a panic. These are emotional flashbacks, these are triggers. Um, long-term, if you don't deal with them, studies show that it leads to IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, it leads to absolute depression. It could also lead to other things, cancer, things like that. So, so there are panic attacks, anxiety attacks. Um uh there's no part of your life that's not affected after betrayal. You know, if you take a rock and you throw it in the middle of a pond, you know, there's a ripple effect. There's not one ounce of that pond that's not gonna be affected by that ripple. The same thing with betrayal trauma. When you are changed, affected, traumatized by betrayal trauma, there's not one area of your life where you're not affected. And I mean physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, psychologically, financially. People got to pay to talk to me. Goofballs like me. That wasn't in the life plan. So it affects. Your life in every way possible.

SPEAKER_00:

We hear a lot about trauma in these current uh times. It's really coming to the forefront, isn't it? And there's a significant healing process that's that's going on at the moment for many of us. But how does betrayal trauma differ from other traumas? I mean, you've been really generous in giving us a lot of different examples, but you know, a lot of people are experiencing traumatic traumatic events, traumatic experiences, but how does that differ from betrayal trauma? Or are they the same thing?

SPEAKER_02:

So um they're interwoven. They're interwoven. Okay. But just for the just for the sake of this podcast, I'll give you just three uh uh reasons why they're different. Uh-huh. Um uh so number one, betrayal trauma is different from non-betrayal trauma because of the personal aspect of it all. So, um, and I'm sorry if I'm being triggering with anything I'm saying, but let's just say you lose your parents, right? That's traumatic. That is traumatic. Um, but you don't personalize it, you don't say it's because of me that my parents died. I mean, some people could maybe can say, well, I should have taken care of them better or I should have done this. But unless you intentionally did away with your parents, it's not you. Your parents died. It's the natural way of life. Um, when it comes to betrayal trauma, when you find out that the person you loved and you committed your life to was having an affair, it's personal. Now you think, well, what was it about me that made them do that? So that's difference number one. It's personal. Difference number two is it's a secret society. If your parents pass away, well, it might be in the papers, you might post it on social media, your friends come and bake you a lasagna, maybe church members come, your coworkers send flowers, maybe you know, some family members come to the to come to the funeral, whatever. When you discover the person you loved and you trusted the most was having an affair, the last thing you want to do is say, hey, everybody, good news. I just found prostitution numbers under my mattress. My husband was calling. People don't want to say that. So you go through this trauma alone, which adds to the complexity and the challenge of healing. And the last way that I'll just say that betrayal trauma is different from say non-betrayal trauma is because trauma affects the here and now in the future. If you lose your parents, you're affected today and you're affected in the future for Thanksgiving or Christmas or what you can't pick up the phone and say, hey, Merry Christmas. Um, when it comes to betrayal trauma, it not only affects the here and now in the future, but it also affects the past. The only trauma that affects the past. Because now you can't drive by certain restaurants anymore like you did before, because maybe your spouse took their affair partner to that restaurant. Now you can't drive down certain streets. Now maybe you can't go to certain hospitals because your husband or your wife was having an affair with the nurse or the doctor at the hospital. Um, now you can and and now you question everything. You can't look at family vacation photos anymore without thinking, well, wait a minute. When they said they had to leave the hotel to go on a work meeting, were they actually on a work meeting or were they meeting somebody? You know what? So betrayal trauma affects the past as well as the present and the future. Those are just three ways why betrayal trauma is different from non-betrayal trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, good. Thanks for clearing that up. Absolutely. Um can betrayal trauma be healed?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's the million dollar life.

SPEAKER_00:

I want to go. I've I've got other questions. Don't worry. This that's not the end. I'm just curious about like no, no.

SPEAKER_02:

Listen, uh, like I was saying before, um, I'm gonna give you my personal opinion. That's all. So that and two dollars will buy a coffee. That's about it. Um, I don't know if betrayal trauma can be healed, just like I don't know if grief can be completely healed, but I do know that you can manage it profoundly, almost perfectly. Okay. So you can manage your betrayal trauma. Um, uh, you can turn your tears into transformation without question. You can turn your grief into growth without question.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, cool. You talked about um the okay, let's go with the the romantic relationship, the infidelity thing. I probably everyone wants to know a little bit about this, what's going on, even if they haven't had the the experience themselves. Um first question is, and you talked about uh how I'm not the same person as I was five years ago, and so on and so forth, and neither is the other person in the relationship. I hear a lot of um people who get to a point in their relationship and they don't feel like they've grown at the same um rate, I guess, or they haven't grown together, they've grown, and so therefore they feel like they don't know the person that they're with anymore. Don't know where I'm going with this question. I guess um the choice about whether we decide to grow together, like how does that work? Like sometimes there's gonna be points where people just go, I don't know you anymore, regardless of the infidelity bit. We'll get to that. Um, so how does that like how does that all work?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. So let me actually tell you something. I'm gonna be honest with you. You know what's sad is this is this right here is breeding ground for infidelity. Uh-huh. This is breed, this is the garden right here that if you tend to other factors, you're watering that garden of potential infidelity. I don't know my spouse anymore. I don't feel connected to my spouse anymore. My spouse doesn't even care what I'm interested in. They don't, they don't, they're not, they don't encourage my hobbies. They're not excited about the things I'm excited about. But my coworker, when I tell my co-worker about myself, and she gives me that smile and she flings her hair back and she gives me that smile and she touches me on the shoulder. Oh, Mr. J, you're so funny. And all of a sudden I feel this tingling in my stomach. This is the breeding ground that you got to be very careful. You got to be very careful. I was talking earlier about how your me time, your self-care has you have to be selfish with it. You also have to be selfish with your relationship. I can't tell you how many times I'm talking to a couple and they're 20, 30 years into marriage. And what happens is that they'll say, Mr. J, we've had kids, we had jobs. When our kids turn into the teen years, we just turned into taxi driver. This one's got to go to soccer, this one's got to go to football. This one's got to go to cheerleading, this one's got to go to horse camp. We became roommates. And then now we're empty nesters. Now we're empty nesters, and we're sitting on opposite ends of the couch looking at each other, saying, Who are you? So absolutely. This is brutal, this is why you have to be intentional. Why is it so exciting when we meet somebody and we date them because we're trying to win them over? Once we win them over, unfortunately, complacency sets in, and we have to be very careful with complacency. Yes, life gets busy. I just told you on this interview, like I don't have a second of my day, I'm not pulled in some direction, but I have to be selfish with my my time with my spouse. I have to be. I have to be intentional. If not, I'm gonna be that person on the couch during emptiness syndrome saying, Who are you? And that's unfair to you and your partner. So people have to be intentional. And listen, if people can't afford babysitters to go out, get creative, go on a staycation, stay in your house. Uh, whatever you have, you have to be in get creative with just spending time with yourself and your spouse because those are the two people that you're gonna wake up for for the rest of your life next to.

SPEAKER_00:

Good tips, very good tips. Betrayal trauma. Can it be something that the ininverted commas perpetrator experiences? The betra like, do they feel trauma because of what they've done, as well as the person on the other side?

SPEAKER_02:

Listen, I know I might lose some people that are listening once I say this, but I'm just gonna give you the facts.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's gonna make people want to know more.

SPEAKER_02:

Affairs or sexually acting out are a drug of choice. So in a lot of ways, you know, people cut themselves, like you know, they cut their skin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because because it it it numbs something, it distracts something. People drink alcohol, people do drugs, people gamble, people have affairs. Affairs are used to numb, distract, avoid, or cope with something. But usually when somebody leaves the gambling casino after losing a thousand dollars, they're disappointed in themselves, they betrayed themselves. When people get out of an affair, they're they're filled with guilt and shame. So, to answer your question, yes. Now, the reason I say I might be losing some of your listeners is because when somebody is hurt by their partner having an affair, they don't give a crap that their partner's hurt because of it. They're like, Oh, can you you what you did to me, and I'm supposed to feel sorry because you feel bad for what you did? Are you serious? You know, so I get that. I get that. But again, affairs or sexually acting out are a drug of choice.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, okay. And those drugs of choice are often because there's something missing.

SPEAKER_02:

There's there's something they're trying to avoid, there's something they're trying to numb, there's something they're trying to cope with, something trying to, yeah, absolutely. Which is why the people, Nadine, the people that do actually come together and decide together they're going to repair and rebuild, they have fairy tale marriages, they have the best, amazing, close, loving, supportive relationships. Because now both broken people are now healing together. I don't know if you you ever heard of the term kins Kinsugi. No, but in but in in in Japan, there's this uh pottery, and basically it's when you have okay, and they put the pottery back together with gold, yeah, because our brokenness is beautiful. Sometimes it's more meaningful and beautiful than not. So when two people decide that they're gonna heal and repair and rebuild after broken trust, Kinsugi, they come out looking like gold, and man, they they they are emotionally vulnerable, they're honest, they're transparent. This is a you know, it's almost like when you talk to somebody who had a heart attack, like you know, let's just say you're talking and they had a heart attack eight years ago, and they'll say, eight years ago, man, I didn't eat well, I didn't sleep well, I didn't exercise, I my job was now I'm in the best shape of my life, and now I prioritize this and I prioritize that, and I feel so good. Well, nobody wants to have a heart attack, that sucks. But but he they repaired and rebuild, and um, and they didn't let that heart attack become their tombstone, they let that heart attack become their stepping stone, and the same thing can happen with infidelity.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. I reckon it would be a massive challenge if it is an undertaking like no other. You've got to be really committed to wanting that relationship to work because, like, as you sort of touched on, the the knee-jerk response to something like that happening with your significant other is like done. We are over. How does someone get to a point where they go? Actually, I want us to figure things out and go to see Mr. J.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um, so you know, let me tell you something, and and I'm telling you something, I'm gonna say words that are going to anger a lot of people. Okay. If you look at people as fallible human beings, and then you look at their behavior through a lens of compassion. Um, and I listen, when I tell people this, they you know, I I I'm in a I'm in a group of other uh people that are in my field, betrayal trauma people, and um and one of the things that I that I tell them when we're just talking, um, you know, we have our monthly meetings of hey, anything new in the field, any new studies that came out, any new, you know, whatever. One of the things that I share is listen, we have to be big enough and strong enough to hold people's anger. Because do you know how many times people are so angry at me? Um, because they're like, are you asking me to have compassion for my husband who saw prostitutes? What monster are you? You know, blah, blah, blah. Um, so so I get it. I get it. I understand that. And listen, I'm not telling anyone to stay in a relationship. I'm not telling anyone to stay in a marriage at all. If you want to leave, if you need to leave, if you feel it's healthy, I will help you leave. But I'm just saying, if you want to heal and repair and rebuild, you gotta look at both parties from compassion. Because again, an affair or sexually acting out is no different from cutting yourself or any other unhealthy coping mechanism you use to avoid, distract, or numb something. What makes it hard though is those three factors that I told you about the personal factor, the secret society, and now how your whole life was uprooted. Those are the things that make that challenging.

SPEAKER_00:

And also that it's a real societal, like if your partner does this, then they are shit, right?

SPEAKER_02:

And without question. Without question.

SPEAKER_00:

So, yeah, so making the choice to deal with it, you the judgment, yes, and I'm gonna tell you something.

SPEAKER_02:

This is why when I talk to people, I say, listen, don't make any major decisions for at least three or four months, and that's at least three or four months. Listen, after three or four months, if you want to leave, you can. But what happens is the minute people find out their spouse, their partner, their significant other cheated on them, they get on social media. This dirty bastard, this dirty dog, this hoe, this, you know, whatever. Then the dust settles three or four months later and they want to rebuild. Now they're fighting all their friends and family members that are saying, You're a fool for staying, you're stupid for staying. This is no easy journey. This is no easy journey at all. And here's the deal, though the majority of people that decide to leave are very vocal about it. The people that decide to stay, they're pretty silent. So we do live in a culture of men are dirty dogs and women are hoes and all this, that cheat, but that's because the people that leave are very vocal. We often don't hear from the many, many, many people that stayed and repaired and rebuilt that said, man, we are doing better than ever. People don't get on social media and say that. So so we we're not hearing those stories.

SPEAKER_00:

What are some of the things that when you are with a couple and they've had this experience, whether it's the man or the woman who's been um cheating? What are some of the what's some of the internal stuff that's going on that's that's like led them to this? Is it that just like forgetting to talk to each other, you know, life just carrying them along, and um, you know, one day they look at each other and think that they don't really know each other anymore, there's no excitement.

SPEAKER_02:

What like oh Nadine, I'm gonna share with you a common phrase that I hear all day long from various people, and this will answer your question.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Once I start asking questions to get to the bottom of something, do you know what I hear often of people that got into affairs? They'll say, Mr. J, I just wanted to feel alive. I just wanted to be seen, I want it to feel valid. And so that's uh and it's a conundrum because on one hand, you can look at this person and say, geez, nobody should feel invisible. Nobody should feel invalid, nobody should feel unworthy. But then I also have to take into account but listen, did you put just as much energy and interest and investment and time and money into work uh building your marriage so you can feel this way, as you did seeking it out elsewhere? Because yes, I do have compassion for the person who stopped out. I do, because it's no different, in my opinion, than somebody coming to me saying, Mr. J, I'm an alcoholic because I hate myself. It's no different, but at the same token, we have to get to the bottom of why, out of all the options, you had many options, you chose the most hurtful one, not only to your spouse, your partner, your significant other, but to you. Because now you are trying to alleviate yourself from guilt and shame and regret. And I'm gonna be honest with you, abuse because, and this is a big big thing in in my field, is betrayal abuse. And this is what I say I wouldn't, I I would not label uh somebody an abuser, but uh just like when you know how sometimes when people drink they become belligerent, that's abusive. When people get into a fair fog, or when people are cheating, there's certain lies and deceptions and secrets, and that can be abusive. They're lying to their spouse, they're getting short with their spouse, they're that their mind changes. So I wouldn't call them an abuser, but they were abusive while they were cheating. Wow, and so now they have to live with damn, I never thought I was an abusive person. So, so there's there's there's a there's a tremendous amount of guilt and shame and and and regret and remorse that the person who stepped out is feeling, and then there's a whole lot of other issues that the person who was betrayed is feeling, on top of rage. And when I mean rage, I mean rage where you didn't even think you had this inside you. Rage. I mean there's people that have been cheated on that are suicidal, but then there's people that have been cheated on that are homicidal. They're like, I'm gonna kill this blanker. So it is rage, like you, like you've never thought you've had it. And you I'm gonna tell you, and so, in my opinion, you're not gonna find this written down anywhere, I don't think. In my opinion, a lot of what betrayal trauma does is it awakens the sleeping giants of your unhealed developmental trauma that you never dealt with. Okay. So so many times, you're not just, let's just say, let's just pretend it's a male-female couple and the male's the one who stepped out. What happens now is the wife not only is dealing with her husband that betrayed her, but now is dealing with her parents that betrayed her that she never healed from. He's now gonna take the brunt of that.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And would you see that there is a pattern in that, like a theme that could potentially like I'm this is really um kind of difficult territory, isn't it? Because if I say in asking this question, was there a theme with that um, you know, imaginary woman where she felt betrayed by her parents and therefore betrayal's a theme in her life, and so it shows up in her um husband having an affair. That looks like I'm trying to blame her. That's not what I'm going to, but that's kind of where it could easily go. But is does that is that a thing?

SPEAKER_02:

Nadine, it's 100% a thing. Wow. I'm gonna tell you something, and again, I I I will never blame or accuse the per the victim. I mean, that's absolutely not. However, I do want to say we oftentimes create what we fear the most.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Now, that doesn't say that you created your partner to cheat. But if you do some of your own reflection and you're honest, you might be able to say, you know, something maybe I did sabotage A, B, and C, where that created distance with my spouse, and then my spouse looked for validation elsewhere. Again, not blaming anyone, nothing at all, because that spouse has 100 responsibility not to go looking somewhere else. But we often do create what we fear the most, which is why it's vital we do our healing work regardless.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, whether we're in a relationship or not.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, yeah. Because listen, we all have wounds, we all have wounds, and I'm gonna tell you something. Maybe this is a bad example, but like I have a daughter and I treat her like a princess, I treat her like a princess, princess, but Nadine, maybe I'm setting her up for failure because not every man out there is gonna treat her like a now. Yes, I want her to have a standard, don't get me wrong, but I also could be doing her an injustice. So even if you come from the best, and I'm not saying I'm the best environment, don't get me wrong, but even if you come from a good healthy environment, that still could create wounds. But let's face it, very few of us come from a healthy environment. A lot of us have wounds, so we're all wounded. We all should be doing the work to heal our woundedness.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Just we're getting close to the end of our hour. I am curious with the just um before we sort of start to close, one one thing that's popping up for me is the a lot of people that I talk to, and you've kind of touched on it very briefly with trauma, is that nervous system response and how we carry trauma in our bodies, and so there's that somatic um healing that needs to happen. Um I am guessing that a lot of your work is the kind of talking people through and getting them um to understand their hap their behaviors um and that sort of thing. But do you do any of that nervous system healing as well?

SPEAKER_02:

100% 100%. Listen, um, I believe you can heal a lot, I believe you can manage a lot of trauma through talking. Absolutely. But trauma is like a ball of lava in our body. You gotta move it, you gotta uh, and just like lava, wherever it travels, it'll destroy, just like lava. Um, you know, when you go to a massage therapist, um, which sometimes you think, oh, I'm gonna go get a full body massage, it's gonna feel so good. And all of a sudden you're laying there, you're almost in tears. Like, oh my god, what are you doing? This isn't enjoyable. I'm I'm crying. I I'm I feel like I'm being, you know, what they're doing is is they're getting those knots out of your shoulders, they're getting those those buildup of cells, they're they're they're breaking them down. That's what you have to do to trauma. Now, you can do that a lot with visualizations, and I do give my my my uh clients some visualizations to do, and they're very effective. Well, to many, they're very effective. Some things are effective, like for instance, I I don't do EMDR, um eye movement uh desensitization, but emdr is very effective to a lot of people, just like um uh EFT tapping. I don't know if you've heard of tapping. Yeah, that's very to a lot of people, that's very healthy, very healthy tapping to some people is ineffective. Visualizations are very effective. Whatever, then there's also some somatic work. There's there's there's trauma yoga that people can get into. So, yes, there are some somatic things that we do, but one of the frustrating parts to healing trauma trauma, Nadine, I'm gonna be honest with you. Well, there's many frustrating things, one of the frustrating things finding what milieu works for you. Because what's gonna work for your trauma is not gonna work for me. And it's the same, you know, another frustration really quick. I know our time is coming to an end, and and I and I get this is that you know, so many times when we're when we traumatized or we're we're betrayed and we need to talk to a professional. First of all, we first have to have the courage to open up to talk to somebody. That's number one. Then we have to look through phone numbers or call our insurance or whatever. That takes that's time and consuming. And trust me, the beginning stages of trauma, you don't have the energy to do nothing but be in the fetal position in bed crying. Then by the time you get a hold of some counselors, now you know now you're on a waiting list. Right. Then after you're done with waiting, being on a waiting list, then they call you back and they're like, Well, this is your copay. You're like, Well, can I even afford that copay? I don't know. Then there's people like me that just do, I don't do any insurance. Then by the time, by the time you actually do find somebody, connect with somebody, make an appointment, it's available. Then you talk to them and you're like, This I don't sit well with anything they're saying. No, you just invested five months. It's very frustrating. It's very frustrating. So I I I get that, and I just want to really acknowledge that so much of this is from the same thing with like healing. Some people um uh talk therapy is what they need, it's what they need. Other people, it's it's yoga, other people, it's tapping, other people it's EMDR, other people it's somatic group. With some people, maybe it's a little bit of all. This is a time-consuming journey, and it's a very exhausting journey. And a lot of people don't have that energy because all they they're they're just they're just this is why a lot of times people right after uh disclosure or D-day of finding out like infidelity, our mind, body, and soul is working so much to heal. This is why people, Nadine, can sleep for 12, 14 hours, wake up in the morning, just go get a drink of water, go to the bathroom, and they're ready to go back and take a nap. Yeah, their bodies exist. So you're supposed to have all this extra energy to go find somebody to talk to now? No, this is a frustrating journey.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and I heard you talk about um in in uh another podcast I listened to doing the work. So it does take some conscious effort, and I think, well, one of the reasons I start I have this podcast, and I speak to people like you is because the journey. Not the same for everyone, and we need to find the things that work for us. And listening to people talking and um getting their vibe can can be um really helpful. Um, and also obviously, you know, we we sort of uh when we have people like you on, we're learning a bit about ourselves all the time, so there's some personal development that's happening. Um where was I going with that? Yeah, but but it's it's crucial that we do the work, right? It's not a magic pill. Never.

SPEAKER_02:

There's no one size fits all. There's no one size fits all. There's no one and done. It's just like forgiveness. We we just don't oftentimes forgive somebody one time. We have to, it's not a one and done. The work is is consistency over time.

SPEAKER_00:

Can I just ask you one last question? I'm really curious because um if it if okay, we've got a couple, we've gone through this experience um with infidelity, we've been to Mr. J, we've been healing our trauma from that betrayal, and we're kind of living our happy lives. But does it come up again? Does it not necessarily the infidelity, but those that that trauma, the betrayal, does it resurface at any point?

SPEAKER_02:

The betrayal or the triggers from the beginning? The triggers, the triggers. So so to answer your question, yes. Yes, 100%. However, with time and consistent work, the impact of them, it's like it's like grief. When you first bury somebody you love, you're crying every day. Then after a while, you grieve them, you mourn them, maybe you honor them, whatever. After a couple of years, around the holidays, it's sad, you know, whatever. As time goes on, yes, you're gonna get reminders, you're gonna get triggers. Um, but the impact is not there anymore. I often say this when we first hear of a D-Day disclosure, you know, when when we find out whatever it is we find out, we're handed a big, huge giant ball filled with manure and it splatters all over it. We got to clean it up. Right with time and work, eventually what we're given is a little tiny, tiny balloon with glitter. So once in a while, that balloon might explode, and you still have maybe a little work to do, but I'd much rather wipe up glitter any day than manure. So the impact isn't as much.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. I still want to call you Dr. J. Mr. J, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a really insightful conversation, and yeah, we're often talking. I'm often talking to people about our own individual work. So, like the yeah, the importance of doing that, um, because we are always in relationship. Um, yeah, it's been really a really generous conversation. I've loved it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_00:

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